Harry's Place

This is mass hysteria.

The mob are not there to defend free speech, but to deny free speech.

So much for ‘Liberal Democracy’ eh.

These thugs outside the BBC are the same ones that voted for the Corporate Fascist New Labour Party who have started five wars, killed over a million in Iraq and have got British troops into a forty year war in Afghanistan.

Vote BNP.

Well done SWP.

You can actually see it here, live, on this blog. You’ve handed the BNP a victory. They’re jubilant.

Stupid stupid waste of space idiot trots.

The mob are not there to defend free speech, but to deny free speech.

So much for ‘Liberal Democracy’ eh.

You really are thick as pig shit, aren’t you? Most of the protestors are UAF, which is made up largely of SWP, far-left, communist types.

So they’re like you in opposing liberal democracy. Two sides of the same imbecilic, nasty coin.

Are the UAF, the SWP and the Nothing British About The BNP groupuscules being run by the BNP ‘Dirty Tricks’ department or by the Special Branch?

And LJB ought to be out doing constructive work instead of yelling at cranks here!

In fact, on pretty much every issue – apart from Odinism and ‘race’ – you believe precisely the same thing.

Griffin could not buy this kind of coverage. He and the B.N.P. are reaping great advantage from this. Hopefully short term.

Mr Barnes should look at the facts. The British people did not vote in Mosley, they will not vote in Griffin and do not vote for extremists in any numbers. The net result of this fiasco will benefit right of centre politics.

They’re worried that no-one has the rhetorical calibre to take on Griffin or to defeat his arguments, and thus millions of British citizens will be bamboozled by his racist double-talk… so they, um, connive to give him the biggest audience possible.Gah!

They’re braindead.

The only way to defeat the BNP is to talk about the politically incorrect subjects they dare discuss. The BNP aren’t popular because those who support them are all racists. Rather, their appeal lies simply in their willingness to talk about issues that concern people, issues which are never raised by the mainstream politicians.

If everyone starts demonising those who gravitate towards the BNP as racist merely because they are worried about where the country is going, that will only serve to push more people into the BNP’s arms.

Never ever wanting to debate the question of immigration, for example, is suicidal for the mainstream pols. The levels of immigration into the UK have nearly doubled since Labour took power 12 years ago, going from just over 300,000 per year to more than 600,000

I came across an excellent article on a French Canadian website yesterday that talked of an exodus from the UK of old stock Britons. Most were going to Australia/New Zealand. When asked why they were emmigrating, many cited the outrageous levels of immigration and the resulting (negative) changes those levels have caused.

There is an growing exodus from France and The Netherlands, as well.

So while those moving in provide far less gov’t revenues and consume far more public resources, those who produce those resources and revenues are moving out.

It’s easy UAF & SWP are fascists. They are racists too. And thugs. Which makes them similar to the BNP, but worse, because the BNP don’t promote fascism and the BNP aren’t hypocrites. What you see is what you get with the BNP.

According to my Publicity Calculator that estimates the net economic worth of free publicity – we have in the last 24 hours had about a Billion pounds worth of free publicity.

The 4 hours of constant BBC News 24 footage was superb.

Four hours of the SWP, UAF and students milling around a London streets shouting a lot.

Brilliant.

Not only was it inane – it was free publicity.

Thanks for that.

Hopefully next week they will spend four hours filming another group of students shouting ‘BNP’ for four hours.

No doubt we shall see a few police officers attacked after dark by the SWP and AFA, so the publicity will continue until Saturday at least.

That should take it to about …. 2 billion in free publicity.

Brand ‘BNP’ has just been imbedded in the consciousness of the masses.

Thanks Auntie.

Oh Lee

Don’t get too smug.

There is an awful lot more “free publicity” lined up for you.

Now you’ve decided to become mainstream politicians instead of WWII Re-enactors, you play by big boy rules.

Sky News have had at least two interviews with people who have cast this whole situation as if it were the equivalent of the Riechstag fire, and claiming that all of our ethnic minorities are now going to be living in a state of fear. That this marks the start of a spiral of white riots and pogroms.

As a tactic for persuading BNP supporters and BNP voters, that’s not exactly a winner is it?

You really are thick as pig shit, aren’t you? Most of the protestors are UAF, which is made up largely of SWP, far-left, communist types.

So they’re like you in opposing liberal democracy. Two sides of the same imbecilic, nasty coin.

#####

Are you really thick.

Lenin called the liberals ‘the useful idiots’ who would allow him to get into power.

Liberal Democracy created the SWP and the UAF.

They are not the antithesis of Liberal Democracy, they are its final product you fool.

The aim of Liberal Democracy is to facilitate the transition of Communism into power and replace capitalism via Fabianism.

“Vote BNP” only if I had my brain replaced by a cauliflower, an over boiled cauliflower, one that was really, really soggy.

Hope there will be a QT thread with a running commentary of what is being said, for those of us who opine from afar.

I wonder if my monthly paycheck for “services rendered” from the Fabians got held up by the Postal Strike this month?

Lenin called the liberals ‘the useful idiots’ who would allow him to get into power.

No he didn’t.

Lee – you remind me of Kevin Kline’s character in A Fish Called Wanda.

You know, the one who thinks he’s an intellectual, and gets very upset if people call him stupid…

Are you really thick.

Lenin called the liberals ‘the useful idiots’ who would allow him to get into power.

Liberal Democracy created the SWP and the UAF.

They are not the antithesis of Liberal Democracy, they are its final product you fool.

The aim of Liberal Democracy is to facilitate the transition of Communism into power and replace capitalism via Fabianism.

Breathtaking stupidity.

First of all, Lenin never used the term ‘useful idiot’ in a speech or any of his writing. It wasn’t attributed to him until decades later. And when it was, it was in the context of Westerners who supported and endorsed the Soviet Union – not liberal democrats. Idiot.

Second, liberal democracy did not ‘create’ the SWP and the UAF. It allows them to exist, which is not the same thing. Most of the people in the SWP and the UAF oppose liberal democracy as it currently exists in Britain.

Third, what the fuck does ‘the aim of Liberal Democracy is to facilitate the transition of Communism into power and replace capitalism via Fabianism’ mean? Liberal democracy is a state in which there is a constitutional commitment to democracy and protection of individual citizen rights. It has nothing to do with communism or Fabianism – liberal democrats can be conservatives, nationalists, Christian democrats, monarchists, republicans.

You are incoherent, politically illiterate, historically retarded – and you look like a complete wanker as well.

Oh Lee

Don’t get too smug.

There is an awful lot more “free publicity” lined up for you.

Now you’ve decided to become mainstream politicians instead of WWII Re-enactors, you play by big boy rules.

############

Thats fine.

Just remember though ‘You will reap what you sow’.

The way you treat us now, is how we shall treat you in the future.

The example you set us, is the example we will follow when we are in power.

The many different pressure points are beginning to converge towards a Tipping Point, a moment of political punctuated equilibrium when revolutionary social and political change occurs.

Best you show us some respect, as some day you will want us to respect you.

and replace capitalism via Fabianism

Fabianism, as it turned out, was something of a one-hit wonder. :-(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws3Xb7L3t5s

Oh dear David T – it appears that some people think he did ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

The fact the phrase is not in his written works, doesnt mean he didnt SAY it.

“The way you treat us now, is how we shall treat you in the future.”

You’re Nazis. We know how you’ll treat people.

Why do you think we’re against you?

Liberal democracy is a state in which there is a constitutional commitment to democracy and protection of individual citizen rights.

########

Another one.

Sigh.

In the midst of the Afghanistan war and the Surveillance Society, the fools still parrot what the war criminals say in Parliament and in the media.

Its like a giant pink elephant is taking a shit on them and they pretend they cant see it or smell it.

I blame the teachers.

Lee, you haven’t even read the Wikipedia article you linked to.

The term is commonly attributed to Vladimir Lenin, sometimes in the form “useful idiots of the West”, to describe those Western reporters and travelers who would endorse the Soviet Union and its policies in the West. However, no reference to a communist sympathizer or political leftist as a “useful idiot” was made in the USA until 1948, and not until decades later would the use of the phrase by Lenin be commented on in the west. In 1948, the phrase was used in a New York Times article in relation to Italian politics; it was mentioned again in 1961. Critics of the term assert that the expression “useful idiot” has never been discovered in any published document of Lenin’s, nor that anyone has claimed to have heard him say it. In the spring of 1987, Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, said “We have not been able to identify this phrase [useful idiots of the West] among [Lenin's] published works.”[1][2].

Lee Barnes: Quoting from Wikipedia.

You’re a fucking lawyer mate? Would you submit a wiki in your defense?

Oooh threats!

Just remember though ‘You will reap what you sow’.

Best you show us some respect, as some day you will want us to respect you.

I think the dungeons and dragons muppet is fully erect now!

Lee, have you ever taken LSD?

Go on Lee

What is “useful idiot” in Russian?

No googling!

Lee John Barnes, I am curious, why are you not by the Fuhrer’s side tonight, it’s a couple of hours before show time and you are here?

Very odd, biggest night for your long knives and you are here, me thinks it a little odd, if, as you say, the propaganda is so spectacularly beneficial, why would you bother with HPs, tonight of all nights.

Very odd.

I find myself in the horrible position of agreeing with Lee. The UAF / SWP are simply a bunch of useless twats.

That being said I hope that the panel give Griffin a good rogering tonight (now that him & martin webster have fallen out)

In the midst of the Afghanistan war and the Surveillance Society, the fools still parrot what the war criminals say in Parliament and in the media.

Here’s an idea Lee. Go to any department of political science in any major university in the world and ask someone there to list the liberal democracies. I’ll bet you a tenner that Britain will be one of them. It’s a matter of well-known classification.

Besides, you aren’t even making sense. One moment you say that liberal democracy in Britain produced the UAF and the SWP, the next you say it isn’t a liberal democracy. Which is it?

As I said – incoherent, politically illiterate, historically retarded.

“The way you treat us now, is how we shall treat you in the future.”

You’re Nazis. We know how you’ll treat people.

Why do you think we’re against you?

######

You know David, you really should be careful what you wish for.

The BNP is not a Nazi organisation.

The BNP may have some members who have Nazi sympathies, just as the Labour Party have many ex-members of the Communist Party in their ranks such as Jack Straw and John Reid – but that doesnt make New Labour a Communist Party.

You demean both the victims of Nazism and also the intelligence of people when you call the BNP a Nazi Party.

Our programme is not Nazi, it is Nationalist.

You better hope that the BNP succeeds in its political plan, because if the BNP fails and falls – then I suspect a real Nazi party will arise.

And then you will really see what Nazism is, as opposed to the bogus scarecrow of Nazism that you peddle to the media as the BNP.

Wake up boy, before its too late.

How long will it be before Lee gets the taste of one of Nick’s “well aimed boots and fists”

I think Lee would love a taste of one of Nick’s boots.

“The BNP may have some members who have Nazi sympathies”

Ah

I’m glad you mentioned that.

1. Why do you source your material from neo Nazi Holocaust denial organisations?

2. If the BNP is not a Nazi party, why do you allow your activists to participate in and promote “Blood and Honour”

3. BNP activists and spokesmen, Joey Smith and Mark Collett are friends with Combat 18 supporters. Any problem with that?

You know David, you really should be careful what you wish for.

More threats!

Lee, have you ever taken so much LSD your mind became completely one with the universe and you had ultimate truths revealed to you?

Lee, using wiki as proof? Oh dear.

All you need to know: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/BNP-international-nazi-friends.php

And stop your pathetic dick waving. You present a tiny percentage of the electorate, so I wouldn’t start using words like tipping point and equilibrium (and make absolutely no sense in the process). Surely as a national party standing up for the British people, it would make sense if you actually mastered the language?

Tempting as it is to knock Lee John Barnes about, can I suggest we stick to the issue? How to save something from this debacle? Something worthwhile and progressive.

I would wager that most people seeing these scenes will not wish to vote for either the B.N.P. or its street fighting alter egos in the S.W.P. The chief loosers will be the democratic left and liberals who have not swallowed the StW message and still want to advance progressive inclusive politics, politics which have brought tangible benefits to the many. To me that is what this should be about, not trying to reason with the demented.

I do genuinely believe that the activities of UAF make it harder to advance an antifascist cause with ordinary people.

Ordinary people do not like Nazis. They don’t like yobboism either.

No David, I speak to real people as opposed to media types and students.

And the ordinary people dear boy, well they are in a revolutionary mood.

If you cannot sense that, then you know it unconsciously.

Why else the hysteria about the BNP on QT by the SWP/UAF and media.

They are well aware of how volatile society is – and thats why they are so determined to try and silence the BNP.

Larkers is right.

If you cannot sense that, then you know it unconsciously.

Ahaa, Jedi mind tricks!

Lee, you’re not answering my question. Have you ever taken so much LSD that matter and energy became one and the streams of destiny flowing from future to past became manifest in the pathways of your brain? You certainly talk like someone who has.

What might have passed as another boring night of political talking heads – of interest only to political anoraks like ourselves – has become the televisual event of the year.

I daresay someone losing their knickers at a Strictly Come Dancing will soon eclipse it. But I think it was going to be big, whether the UAF turned up or not. The bleeding Beeb has been going on about nothing else for the last couple of days.

They are well aware of how volatile society is – and thats why they are so determined to try and silence the BNP.

Hahahah! I think you’ll find the reason is because they – like the BNP – are sad dreamers, pining for an age gone by.

“I daresay someone losing their knickers at a Strictly Come Dancing will soon eclipse it.” – KB Player 6.58 p.m.

Oh! How I wish I had written that!

1. Why do you source your material from neo Nazi Holocaust denial organisations?

2. If the BNP is not a Nazi party, why do you allow your activists to participate in and promote “Blood and Honour”

3. BNP activists and spokesmen, Joey Smith and Mark Collett are friends with Combat 18 supporters. Any problem with that?

Oh! How I wish I had written that!

Ditto. I did a LOL.

“The bleeding Beeb has been going on about nothing else for the last couple of days.”

Cos someone decided to make a huge issue of it and demanded they justify themsleves… repeatedly. So they did. Repeatedly.

Larkers – if we were more cunning politicos here we would engineer it. But we’re a useless lot who waste our time trying to teach Big Gob Barnes kindergarten politics.

Fascist vs facist.

This shooting oneself in the foot business; it’s possibly something in the water. Whatever it is, it seems to have addled Royal Mail workers too.

I’ve got so sick of the Beeb (and I usually love it) that I’ve switched to Channel 4. They’ve had Margaret Hodge talking about The Subject of the Moment – pretty good I think.

And the ordinary people dear boy, well they are in a revolutionary mood.
——————————————
The ordinary people being how much of the electorate? The latest polls show the Tories at 43%, Labour at 26% and the Lib Dems at 18%. Are they all students and media types? No ordinary people in those? Has the revolution started?

Iisn’t the fact that Martin Smith got himself arrested a very positive outcome?

Bratt and David T:
It strikes me you have more of a problem with anti-fascists than with the fascists themselves.To blame UAF for this boost for the BNP rather than the BBC,is just,well,what I would expect from you!
But,as your comments box has revealed over many years,despite your claimed opposition to fascists,fascists find much to agree with in your bilious outpourings on muslims and the “Far Left”, “Far Left” refering to anyone to the left of Kissinger.

“The aim of Liberal Democracy is to facilitate the transition of Communism into power and replace capitalism via Fabianism.”

What a moron. Where does he get this shit from? And what has Dickie Lenin been saying about it, given that this BNP parrots the SWP position on Iraq and Afghanistan? How can Dickie condemn the BNP with a straight face?

If the SWP were a popular party, and if it had the faintest idea about anything at all, it would win the occasional election.

Frankly, I don’t think I need a lesson from totalitarian communists about how best to operate in a democracy.

If you listened to what Lee Barnes says, you’d find that on the subject of “Zionists”, Iraq/Afghanistan, capitalism… you’re pretty close to the BNP.

hmmm.. you say the SWP are idiots as they have drawn attention to the BNP.

Sadly their primary intent is probably to draw attention to the SWP.

‘bilious outpourings on muslims’

Care to explain what exactly you are referring to?

And the ordinary people dear boy, well they are in a revolutionary mood.

Blimey. We;ve been had. “Lee John barnes” is really Lindsey german having a laugh.

The stupidity of this QT is that its recorded at 7:00pm to be broadcast at 10:30pm and so anything racist or contentious by Griffin won’t be broadcast.

That means Griffin and BNP get sanitised and handed even MORE propoganda.

“Hey Doris, Griffin seems quite reasonable. They say he’s racist but hasn’t uttered a single racist word. Is there somthing up with the telly. The picture keeps jumping. Bad camera-work I say”

I am watching Channel 4 too. I thought Margaret Hodge was refreshingly reasonable. She seems to have a lot more faith in the QT panel than I do, however.

Riot vans, ambulances, arrests, thuggery, stuff being set afire, breaking and entering, somebody bleating that the BBC shouldn’t be allowed to invite Griffin out of respect for Black History Month, another declaring that there should be more limits to free speech, “Just because you may say something, doesn’t mean you should… “, I really can’t think of anything the BNP could possibly wish for.

Don’t these knobheads ever stop to think about the sheer powerfulness of silent, dignified, orderly demonstration? As currently constituted, they are an asset to the BNP.

“Care to explain what exactly you are referring to?”

Oh yes, please do.

I have written about a series of named Islamist political parties; chiefly Hamas/MB, Jamaat-e-Islami, Hizb ut Tahrir, and Al Muhajiroun

The most moderate of those parties have political programmes which are considerably more extreme – and, indeed, overlap – with those of the BNP.

The SWP have entered into coalitions with those parties, have promoted them, and have attacked as racists those who have pointed this out.

Of course the winners here are going to be the Tories. Most BNP votes come from blue collar former Labour voters who are pissed off with massive immigration. The Tories are in opposition. The BNP fascists will be repugnant to many normal folks, as will the STW type fascists. What all this emptying Glocks into feet and media leverage will do is highlight the discontent that has caused the BNP spike – Labour’s self serving cynicism. The Tories really don’t have to do much to benefit from this other than generally metabolize and issue pretty bland platitudes.

The BNP will remain marginal, there aint going to be any ‘tipping point’ or ‘critical mass’. There wasn’t in the 30s with Mosley and there will not be now, not a chance.

The BNP are a really nasty lot though. There is a risk that some of these may turn to terrorism when they realize it’s going to amount to nothing, but the threats still an order of magnitude or two lower than from Islamofascism.

The SWP have entered into coalitions with those parties, have promoted them, and have attacked as racists those who have pointed this out
SWP have formed a coalition with Al Muhajiroun? are you sure?
But at least you have the ahem decency not to deny that you have more of a problem with UAF than the BNP.

Discussing this with a friend over the phone just now – “No, I never watch Question Time” (me) – I thought how wrong headed it is to approach issues, some very real issues, on the terms of Mr Griffin and the B.N.P. It is granting them undue influence in mapping out the ground of debate.

Don’t fight on your enemies terms strikes me as exactly what is wrong about this. If people have concerns about immigration and population numbers, schooling, housing and yes, religious extremism, then address those issues without reference to the B.N.P. To do otherwise is like making them the referee in their own game. Simply turning up as the S.W.P. have done flatters them.

The B.N.P. have no answers, had no answers, and have nothing positive to contribute to the open society. Now, what’s the problem exactly?

“It strikes me you have more of a problem with anti-fascists than with the fascists themselves.”

Your anti-fascists are not anti-fascists, they are just a different flavor of fascist.

“Far Left” refering to anyone to the left of Kissinger.”

You wouldn’t be far Left yourself by any chance, would you.

How many of your anti-fascist comrades would agree with these demands, I wonder?

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent
slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

19. We demand substitution of a “German” common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

And there is more, so tell me Bassoon, just how many of your comrades would be “all for those” demands.

This place and it’s posters are the real descent left, you others are merely credulous children duped by the words of nasty little political miscreants, you think you have all the answers but just like the lemmings who follow the BNP, your ultimate destination is the same cliff edge, you all will end up at the bottom of the cliff, because the “people” have tasted both of your bitter ideologies and the “people” don’t like the taste.

You can fool some of the people more than once, but you cannot fool all the people again.

Also,the names “Hamas” and “Muslim Brotherhood” are not synonyms,no matter how much you may wish it was so.Repeating it won’t make any difference either.

The SWP entered into a coalition with Jamaat-e-Islami in respect. This was pointed out to them, repeatedly. They denied it.

The Jamaati bloc then turfed the SWP out of that alliance.

The SWP then claimed that it was because the Jamaatis were “small businessmen”. Even when they were being rolled over, they wouldn’t admit that the IFE/ELM lot they were in bed with were, in fact, supporters of a South Asian fascist party.

They also fielded Anas Altikriti as a candidate in RESPECT. Altikriti was on the Shura council of the Muslim Association of Britain: the UK franchise of the fascist and antisemitic theocratic party, the Muslim Brotherhood.

If you consider the policies of these two parties, you will find that they are considerably more vicious that even the BNP. Yet the SWP promoted them, and attacked those who pointed this out as racists.

SWP: enabling fascists proudly, for decades.

Will they really edit it for contentious material? I prefer the radio four version anyway, the audience seem brighter and less bovine…

One of the posters says “Smash the BNP”. How does one do this without resorting to fisticuffs? Surel “Smashing” something is to imply the use of violence.

How about “Curtail The BNP”, “The BNP are Divisive on Racial Issues” or “Barnsey loves Nick”

Haven’t the government had quite cosy dealings with the MAB?
Also,what do you mean by considerably more vicious? The attacks on non-whites aren’t official BNP policy,yet they happen.Are you relaxed about these attacks David?

This only strengthens my belief that stupid people shouldn’t be given a vote.

Also,the names “Hamas” and “Muslim Brotherhood” are not synonyms,no matter how much you may wish it was so.Repeating it won’t make any difference either.

Look, I have been arguing with one thick apologist for fascism all night, so I would rather not do so with another.

However:
Article 2 of the Hamas Covenant:

“The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times.”

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Oh, and if you’d like to argue that the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate organisation, have a look at their platform:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2007/10/11/egypts_brotherhood_party_details_platform_akin_to_that_of_iran/

The SWP fielded, as a candidate, a Muslim Brotherhood activist.

Yet – amazingly – it portrays itself as an antifascist party.

Got me popcorn.. Looks like it could be bigger than X Factor..

PS..

I thought Stalin said useful idiots.

What fascist party are United Against Fascism aligned with David?

UAF are cosying up to Islamofascists. Simples. Before the frothing starts, are we not allowed to use the word “Islamofascist” any more to describe those Muslims who want to turn half the world into a theocratic shit hole?

Three injured police officers taken to hospital.

shatner’s bassoon and lee john barnes, two cheeks of the same arse.

Mr Bassoon seems to have decided not try to justify the claim about ‘bilious outpourings on muslims’.

“What fascist party are United Against Fascism aligned with David?”

UAF is run by Socialist Action and the Socialist Workers Party.

The Socialist Workers Party entered into coalition with activists from two fascist parties in RESPECT: the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat e Islami

Socialist Action, with their patron Ken Livingstone – the Chair of UAF – promoted the Muslim Brotherhood and hosted – and kissed – Qaradawi: a man who called for a second Holocaust against the Jews and hoped that he could participate in it.

Nick Griffin, by contrast, merely denied that the Holocaust took place.

A true moderate!

The Beeb has some very funny footage of ranting UAFers being dragged out of the BBC – one by the leg of her skinny jeans, the other by the handle of a rucksack.

I’m very worried about the events this evening outside the Beeb.

I’m a good judge of the public mood and the campaign by military figures in recent days has got my juices flowing – I’ve busily been emailing reporters asking them to put it to Griffin that he would have supported the other side in the war and therefore using images of WW2 is groteque. (Amazing that neither Snow, Nick Robinson or anyone else mentioned this in interviews) This campaign is far more effective than anything you guys have ever done, of course, which obviously has the SWP hoping mad and lashing out. But what’s happened this evening has once again diverted my feelings back onto the freedom of speech issue and dislike for angry mobs. To see these idiots fighting the police and behaving like an angry mob determined to stop a debate, has me disgusted. And if I’m disguested by this, that means the public will be as well.

It appears the SWP have handed the BNP another big victory, just at the moment they were on the ropes. I very much hope this is not the case.

Look, I have been arguing with one thick apologist for fascism all night, so I would rather not do so with another.
Ditto.
However…
Let’s leave the question of whether the MB in Egypt has any control over Hamas in Gaza to one side.Also,let’s ignore the fact that your screeds on al-muhajiroun,an organisation in comparison to which the SWP is a mass movement,so tiny and insignificant is it,can be seen, rightly,as utterly hysterical, and yes,bilious.
What I want to know is,what is your beef with UAF,if not for the fact that they are actively opposing fascism?
@Anaximander:I can’t be bothered to read any of your nonsense.

We could always have Nick Griffin on Strictly?
Imagine the ratings,he would look lovely in a tu tu!

Why do they think behaving like the English Defense League is a good PR move?

The Socialist Workers Party entered into coalition with activists from two fascist parties in RESPECT: the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat e Islami
So what? The conservative party has members of the Springbok club.
A moderate by contrast.
Yeah,a moderate whose party members are often also members of Combat 18.But he’s a moderate! Ohhkaaaayyy…

‘Useful Idiots’, it is a phrase in common usage, whatever its lineage, that people know and understand to mean one thing. The word ‘Fascist’ is ineluctibly linked to ‘Rightwing’ when the truth is Fascists were Socialists, and Neocons were in fact Democrat Neo-Liberals and indeed originally Marxists.

‘Harry’s Place’ has played its own part in promoting the BNP…there is no such thing as bad publicity. You fail to understand human nature. Do you not recognise the mechanism that made the German People turn a blind eye to the violence of the Nazis and eventually the concentration camps, the Muslim kneejerk reaction to the bombs and extremism….they may be bastards but they’re Muslim bastards….and of course success makes the end justify the means. How many Germans cheered the Blitzkrieg victories in France and Russia, how many Muslims cheered 9/11?

You and government fail to answer the questions the BNP raise, the questions that a majority of people in this country raise, on immigration, on Europe and probably climate change.

The government wants it both ways, to silence the BNP by calling them names and hoping they are made to look unelectable pariahs and then to continue to ignore and deal with the issues that the BNP say they have the answers for.

The only way to deal with the BNP is deal with what makes them successful.

Many people will vote BNP, they will ignore their extremist policies and look at their populist ones.

Having said that Nick Griffin is their only presentable ‘face’ and as seen recently in his reaction to the Generals he is a grenade waiting to go off and is likely to alienate many potential voters by intemperate remarks such as calling a bunch of highly respected generals in the middle of a war ‘Nazis’.

Tonight will certainly be interesting just waiting for him to go off under what will undoubtedly be huge pressure from the panel and the audience.

“@Anaximander:I can’t be bothered to read any of your nonsense.”

Your loss, little one.

Why aren’t I surprised by your article? I’ve always seen Harry’s Place as a kind of Jewish BNP. So, the fact that we have a meeting of mind here between Harry’s Place and the “I shall-fight-to-death-for-racists-to-incite brigade” should surprise only the ignorant.

Was it John Hume who said of the Provisional movement that the method had become more sacred than the cause? The same could be said of these buffoons today. Their willingness to assist fascists obviously doesn’t stop at the Islamic version. Quite seriously, the decent left needs to take on ownership of anti fascism with the utmost urgency.

My beef with UAF is that it isn’t an antifascist organisation. Rather, it is a recruiting device for a couple of totalitarian communist organisations, which are supporters of fascist parties.

UAF has one “contribution” to “fighting fascism”. That contribution consists of rioting in the streets. It is worse than useless – it undermines effective antifascist work, and promotes the narrative of the BNP.

This is why effective antifascist groups, such as Hope not Hate, do not do any of the things that the UAF do. You don’t see HnH rioting, do you?

Did UAF get stories in all the newspapers and on all channels attacking the BNP earlier this week? No they did not. That was Nothing British about the BNP.

And what did UAF do when Searchlight/HnH pointed out that some Islamist groups shared the racism and bigotry of the White Supremacist far right? Why, they accused them of being “Zionists” and “Islamophobes”. That’s why Searchlight left UAF.

Sorry Shatners bassoon – I want to know if I’m wasting my time here.

Are you reading my answers and thinking:

“Gosh – I was wrong. UAF DOES seem to be run by some pretty extreme people with vicious and nasty allies who ARE actually worse than the BNP. And I do wonder – does rioting in the streets REALLY discourage people from voting for the BNP or does it undermine the struggle against fascism? ”

Or are you thinking

“Damn – my 6th form debating point seems to have missed its mark. Never mind. Let me think if I can come up with another, equally duff point”

Because if it is the latter, please don’t bother. Some people here actually are liable to be the first to be attacked by fascists, if they gain power, and therefore take the struggle against extremism a little more seriously than you do. This isn’t entertainment for skinny white kids wearing keffiyehs. It is our lives on the line, and those of our familes.

OK?

I’ve always seen Harry’s Place as a kind of Jewish BNP.

Then you’re a fucking idiot, aren’t you?

“Tonight will certainly be interesting just waiting for him to go off under what will undoubtedly be huge pressure from the panel and the audience.”

The reason why “no platform” doesn’t work, Griffin will undoubtedly end up sticking his head up his own arse tonight, with Straw, Warsi and Huhne more than capable of helping him do it. The protests do nothing but distract.

Because if it is the latter, please don’t bother. Some people here actually are liable to be the first to be attacked by fascists, if they gain power, and therefore take the struggle against extremism a little more seriously than you do. This isn’t entertainment for skinny white kids wearing keffiyehs. It is our lives on the line, and those of our familes.

OK?

#######

Would that be the real Islamo-fascists or the mythic Nazi one tossers like you David T like to peddle to people as a pathetic form of inflating your own sense of self importance ?

I think you ought to be worried about suicide bombers not storm troopers.

‘I’ve always seen Harry’s Place as a kind of Jewish BNP.’

Care to explain why?

Thank you David for calmly re-iterating your points. UAF are accomplishing nothing. They are lowering the debate (on important issues) into a street brawl.

UAF have succeeded in getting the BNP on to the top of the media agenda, and made Griffin look like a martyr. And the BNP have apparently had a sharp rise in donations.

Unite Against Fascism have given the BNP a lot of assistance.

Idiots.

Might I leave a message for Barnes?

I’ve seen the cynical and cheap way you have tried to use the British Army to gain sympathy, and I saw your leader’s claim that most squaddies vote BNP, or some such.

Well, I’m part of the British Army and I speak for more than just myself when I say your party is considered to be laughable, actually. The service Fijians, Nepalese, West Indians etc have provided this country, and you think your racist party will illicit any sympathy from us? Own goal, dickhead. You were laughed at a few days ago when you released those statements. Not nodded along with, not given thumbs up – THE BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY WAS LAUGHED AT.

I align myself with the left you hate – not the UAF/SWP left, but I count myself as being amongst the genuine anti fascists who reject totalitarianism irrespective of its origins. I have been to places you couldn’t even find on a map in service of people whose lives have been devastated by people like YOU, Barnes. That’s the reality of it -I have seen the damage your ideology does to honest and good people in the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan. What is more, so have tens of thousands of my colleagues. And yet you have the arrogance, the temerity, to think we sympathise with you? What do you take us for?

And don’t think I’m some oafish Oxbridge educated officer. I’m a mere Corporal, just one of the boys. And I speak for those boys when I tell you that you sicken us.

Lee John Barnes
22 October 2009, 6:57 pm

And the ordinary people dear boy, well they are in a revolutionary mood.

When Ed Broadbent’s New Democrats campaigned on being the party of “ordinary Canadians” his bid for prime minister back in the 1970s failed miserably despite the high rating he got for his performance.

People may be poor, middleclass or wealthy, but nobody thinks of himself or herself as ordinary.

The smart guys in the advertising game know that you can fail miserably by underestimating the intelligence of the public.

The BNP may be fooling some of the electorate some of the time, but being constantly exposed for what it really is will ensure that they never get further than Le Pen’s National Front and other European fascist parties.

Oh look, Lee’s back. But he’s not answering any of the questions that have been put to him. Why’s that?

Lee, the papers present at the recording claim differently. In fact it was described as a pasting by one. Let’s see for ourselves shall we, and you in the meantime can familiarise yourself with http://www.twitter.com. The news as and when you want it.

David: I ‘m sorry if I have given you the impression that I take the fight against extremism less seriously than Anaximanders other sandal,say,or Flaming Fairy.Also,may I point out that you don’t know a damn thing about the actual risk to myself and my family from the BNP! I didn’t come to this with a fixed opinion regarding UAF,and it may be that you have a point.That said,when you link to papers written by Daniel Pipes and the MEMRI website to support your opinions(as this blog has done) your objectivity is clearly called into question.I’ve just noticed that the post has been amended to include the claim that the BNP is one of the leading anti-war parties.
If you have any honesty please don’t start claiming that the “stoppers” you despise are all fascists.

Well, thats it.

Job done.

It appears that Nick has done well against a hostile panel and a hostile audience.

That alone is a victory – allied with the farce outside the BBC building, it is a total victory.

The filming of the show has been finished.

No Platform is demolished.

2 Billion pounds worth of free publicity.

The UAF acting like thugs for the cameras.

Job done.

“I’ve just noticed that the post has been amended to include the claim that the BNP is one of the leading anti-war parties.”

Thanks for letting me know what you think

Please feel free to pick any of these points up with Lee.

Lee – there’s a guy here who doesn’t believe that the BNP is really opposed to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Do you want to put him right?

Lee, the papers present at the recording claim differently. In fact it was described as a pasting by one. Let’s see for ourselves shall we, and you in the meantime can familiarise yourself with http://www.twitter.com. The news as and when you want it. Pleasure.

Is the job done, would you say, Lee?

In that case you won’t mind getting on with answering the questions people are putting to you.

Oh, interesting: some texts and twitter posts coming from people at the QT recording.

Some phrases used include “laughing stock” and “absolute pasting”. I wonder if we can guess what the context of those phrases is.

We are not just the ‘war stoppers’.

We are the ‘We would not have been stupid enough to start the illegal wars in the first placers’.

oooh – i see what David T has done there. clever!

So,from your general silence it would be fair to describe you as David “intensely relaxed about violent attacks on non-whites”T?

According to some people on Twitter – so, caution required – Griffin got a pasting, particularly from Jack Straw.

We’ll see in an hour and a half.

“I’ve always seen Harry’s Place as a kind of Jewish BNP. ”

Is that Far Right Fascism or Far Left Fascism?

I really can’t tell the difference these days, one thing is certain however this alice has a serious hatred disorder, the type of hatred that led to the Stalin “purges and the Hitler extermination camps.

Fuck em all I say, far Left, far Right, same shit, it just emanates from different assholes.

Oh, interesting: some texts and twitter posts coming from people at the QT recording.

Some phrases used include “laughing stock” and “absolute pasting”. I wonder if we can guess what the context of those phrases is.

########

Excellent.

If he appealed to the BBC, media and liberals we would be fucked.

It may shock you, but the average person doesnt care what they think.

They make their own minds up.

And after the pantomime outside the BBC, they have revealed themselves as the real extremists.

There is one glimmer of hope. If the SWP manages to drive a large audience who then witness Griffin get a pasting, it could work out quite well.

It will also be fun watching the BNP rationalise their success.

I would wager that most people seeing these scenes will not wish to vote for either the B.N.P. or its street fighting alter egos in the S.W.P.

Quite right. Most people will see it as a lot of skinny middle-class twits getting over -excited about a fat middle-class twit with nothing to say.

Thanks Joe

I’d nearly forgotten!

1. Why do you source your material from neo Nazi Holocaust denial organisations?

2. If the BNP is not a Nazi party, why do you allow your activists to participate in and promote “Blood and Honour”

3. BNP activists and spokesmen, Joey Smith and Mark Collett are friends with Combat 18 supporters. Any problem with that?

Just back from White City. UAF are indeed an embarassment to anti-fascism. Some of the speeches were fine; others awful. I still think it was important to have some sort of demonstration. I just wished it didn’t have to be managed by a bunch of Trots and didn’t attract overexcited youngsters who want to start throwing things at the police.

Anyway, looking forward to QT. If it is boring then that will probably be a victory for Griffin. Hopefully someone will be able to provoke the true mentalism of his political worldview to emerge.

We would not have been stupid enough…

Do you ever find it frustrating, Lee, that other political parties are so stupid in comparison to the intellectuals of the BNP? You must do.

(why aren’t you answering any of the direct questions asked of you, by the way?)

If he appealed to the BBC, media and liberals we would be fucked.

They make their own minds up.

I strongly suspect they will indeed make their own minds up when they see him being laughed at and getting flustered at simple questions actually.

Now, anyway, as you say – “job done” – what are the answers to the questions people are asking you?

What a mess. Left and Right fascists in a tussle to see who wins the privilege of putting a bullet in my head.

What a mess. Left and Right fascists in a tussle to see who wins the privilege of putting a bullet in my head.

Its like the Paris commune all over again – but with iphones.

“What a mess. Left and Right fascists in a tussle to see who wins the privilege of putting a bullet in my head.”

That’s what makes all this – at the end of the day – so utterly depressing.

Well I’ve just seen the first clips of it and he didn’t seem to do very well. Lets just hope the EDL type behaviour outside doesn’t distract from this.

Pathetic. Really pathetic.

You continually claim anti-fascist credentials, and then, predictably, when it comes down to it, the focus of your whining, scandalised criticism is not Griffin and the BNP, but the kids who actually have the courage of their conviction to turn up and show their opposition.

Followed by a parade of variously witless handwringing remarks, painfully ignorant ‘neither left nor right’ abstentionism or jeering comments. Many of you are clearly enjoying this. The extent of your anti-fascism is to post some sniggering or jeering comments on the internet – either that or a Hyacinth Bucket-like scandalised reaction to the sight of ‘ruffians’ on the street.

Well I’ve just seen the first clips of it and he didn’t seem to do very well. Lets just hope the EDL type behaviour outside doesn’t distract from this.

If he has failed as badly as reports suggest, what do YOU think people will forward one another YouTube clips of?

- “some people shouting outside a building”

or

- “look at this stupid racist getting humiliated LOL!!1″

OK Barnes, a few home truths if you’re sat comfortably. I’m a serving British soldier, just the kind of constituency your party tried to woo with those bizarre comments a few days ago about how most squaddies are with you. Most squaddies, in fact, are with the Nepalese, West Indians and Fijains who we fight side by side with. You, know, those black looking fellas you’d send ‘home.’ The ones who go abroad and die doing more in the service of the country than your party could ever begin to contemplate. You scored quite a howler of an own goal when you just casually assumed that 100,000 of us were going to vote for you, dickhead.

Another point worth noting is that there are scores of thousands of British soldiers who’ve been to places like the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan and seen precisely the impact of your vicious creed. We would equally object their sympahtisers in the UAF and SWP becasue we’ve seen enough of the impact of fascism to know that no matter what faith or ethnicity you approch it from, it’s vile. Unlike the UAF, we hate Islamic fascists as much as we hate you, Barnes.

And yet you still have the arrogance, the temerity, to think you can rely on us for support. You were laughed at where I work the other day – laughed at. I’ll just say that again – THE ARMY IS LAUGHING AT THE BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY. And don’t assume I’m some Oxbridge toff Officer. I’m a mere Corporal, just one of the boys, who grew up on a shit estate in a rough Lancashire town. I’m kind of your core voter really! Yet here I am, on behalf of a VAST proportion of the British Army, explaining that WE REJECT YOU WHOLESALE. We have seen the results of hatred and intolerance of your ideology with our own eyes.

I shan’t read your reply. You’re quite arse numbingly boring, apart from anything else.

Okay.

Shatner’s Bassoon posts at 8:17 pm wins the “Rick from the Young Ones” award for “Most Embarrassingly Childish Student JCR Debating Technique.”

Let’s hope Griffin did just as badly.

@Ed – are you suggesting that any of the points made by David and Brett about the SWP and UAF are untrue? If so which points?

Or are you just flinging mud without anything concrete to say for yourself?

“Shatner’s Bassoon posts at 8:17 pm wins the “Rick from the Young Ones” award for “Most Embarrassingly Childish Student JCR Debating Technique.”

Oh I don’t know, ED at 22 October 2009, 9:17 pm is in with a chance for that award, “Pathetic. Really pathetic.” Rick used to always say that didn’t he?

So let’s see…

We have the leader of the BNP, a crowd of SWP and UAF members, the perenially odious Question Time audience, a handful of clueless politicians from other parties, a bunch of cops from the Met, and it’s all happening at the BBC.

Any possibility of a small asteroid strike on the location?

You continually claim anti-fascist credentials, and then, predictably, when it comes down to it, the focus of your whining, scandalised criticism is not Griffin and the BNP, but the kids who actually have the courage of their conviction to turn up and show their opposition.

Thanks, Ed. No I think people have a right to be deeply concerned about the mob trying to close down the debate after the PR boost the BNP were given from when this happened the last time. Remember the backlash across the nation as people filled BBC switch boards and message forums saying, however much they hate the BNP they have a right to hold a press conference the day after they have won an election? You’d have to be pretty stupid not to be deeply worried about this when watching the scenes of people fighting the police. It has the potential to undo the good work in recent days by the military campaign – far more effective then any thing the SWP has ever done – and Griffin’s humiliation on the programme itself. These people don’t care about that – it’s just a bit of EDL style fun for them – but serious people can’t just shut down their brains and ignore this.

Ed, can you tell us what – precisely – all that shouting might have achieved, in terms of actually reducing support for the BNP?

Are there any sites streaming the audio or video of QT today, other than the BBC itself? I would really like to listen to or watch the program, any ideas.

You continually claim anti-fascist credentials, and then, predictably, when it comes down to it, the focus of your whining, scandalised criticism is not Griffin and the BNP, but the kids who actually have the courage of their conviction to turn up and show their opposition.

How dare you refer to these intellectual vanguards of the revolution as “kids”.

Its up against the wall for you mate.

“You continually claim anti-fascist credentials, and then, predictably, when it comes down to it, the focus of your whining, scandalised criticism is not Griffin and the BNP, but the kids who actually have the courage of their conviction to turn up and show their opposition.”

I suggest Ed types “BNP” into the search box at the top to see exactly how much we’ve focussed on the BNP and the extent of our criticism.

How dare you refer to these intellectual vanguards of the revolution as “kids”.

But they ARE kids – pure young minds unsullied by the cynicism of politics*

*(or actually having to think through the effects of their actions)

I suggest Ed types “BNP” into the search box at the top to see exactly how much we’ve focussed on the BNP and the extent of our criticism.

Indeed. There is a reason why the BNP troll this blog and not his far left loon hangouts. HP is bad for business.

Brett, the giveaway is the use of the phrase “when it comes down to it”.

Namely – the only time opposition to the BNP is actually important is when there’s an opportunity to act like a wanker in Shepherd’s Bush.

‘We have the leader of the BNP, a crowd of SWP and UAF members, the perenially odious Question Time audience, a handful of clueless politicians from other parties, a bunch of cops from the Met, and it’s all happening at the BBC.’

Can’t help thinking it’d be more fun if they set the whole thing to the theme to Benny Hill.

Atzmon, from what I could gather, is determinedly, mercilessly critical of the current Israeli government. This does not make him an anti-semite. He is equally critical of what he describes as Zionism: a relatively ruthless religious (?) patriotic (?) movement which has gained disproportionate power over Western policies towards the Israeli/Palestinian region. Again, this surely no more makes him anti-semitic than criticising the far religious right in the US would make me anti-white.

Secondly, the writer might be correct in pointing out that the UAF, among others, have shown a lamentable lack of ‘tactics’. I’m under the impression, though, that public outpourings of natural disgust, among other factors, were instrumental in causing the shamed retreat of the National Front in the 70’s. It might be very British, in the best sense, to try and ignore the BNP, and I agree, it was initially good tactics. But I fear the cat is out of the bag, and we now have to face it.

The Beeb has put up a six minute clip from QT and Griffin appears top be doing rather well. Auntie seems to have pulled in as many ethnics as she can find, which will also tell in his favour as it looks like he is being bullied.

@Tab: do you not think there is a difference between the 70s counter-demonstrations against NF marches – which aimed at actively stopping the NF committing acts of violence and/or intimidation – and demonstrating against the right of a politician (who, like it or not, is democratically elected) to speak on television??

Tab:

“I’m not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act.”

… and led to his condemnation of “Jewishness” as “very much a supremacist, racist tendency”.

“You can take the Jew out of Israel but you cannot take Israel out of the Jew.”

“We must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people are trying to control the world very seriously”

“antisemitism is a spin, it is a myth…there is no such a thing as antisemitism.”

Guess who said those?

Griffin seemed to say that he can’t tell us why he changed his mind on the holocaust because of some EU law. Isn’t that admitting that he only changed his views because he was legally obliged, and therefore is a public admission he has not changed his views? Strange line of argument.

Presumably you think the people who confronted the BUF at Cable Street were a ‘rioting’ mob and should, instead, have campaigned against fascism more sensibly – perhaps by half-heartedly huffing and puffing a bit about the Nazis on the contemporary equivalent of a tabloid style blog for those of plodding intellect and painfully middle of the road views (I’m excepting, of course, those of definite rightwing views who seem to find themselves in rather agreeable company here). And perhaps these serious inter-war anti-fascists would have reacted with scandalised indignation to the antics of those in the street – who were, presumably, worse than the BUF.

What Ed said
plus
What’s the HP line on the 43 Group?

Ed, you have completely ignored the point I just aimed at Tab.

And the questions I asked you earlier.

Do you think there is no difference between 1) marching against a mob intent on indimidation and/or violence and 2) trying to stop a man speaking on television?

And are you accusing David and Brett of lying about the SWP and UAF? If so, which points of theirs do you think are inaccurate?

If you cannot answer these questions, then it means you are flinging unjustified accusations and should, if I may be so bold, butt the fuck out.

Do you think there is no difference between 1) marching against a mob intent on indimidation and/or violence and 2) trying to stop a man speaking on television?

Evidently he doesn’t see a difference, because he continues to make the same berkish comparison.

And I’m still waiting for Ed’s point-by-point analysis of what precisely today’s protest outside the Beeb achieved in terms of minimising support for the BNP.

I wonder if that’s because the answer is the square root of fuck-all.

Presumably you think the people who confronted the BUF at Cable Street were a ‘rioting’ mob.

That was against a civilian army that could potentially takeover a country in an era where the state was weak. I think the situation has moved on a little bit. And how can you compare facing down a civilian army with this attempt today to close down a democratic debate? You knob head.

Also the landscape has changed in regard to the media. With the electonic media these days you can’t censor democracy in the way it could in the past. We saw how that worked out with the IRA.

I have been at the forefront of trying to get the media to run on Griffin’s history this week, but am disgusted that you guys have diverted us on to dealing with the very real fear that you given the BNP another PR boost. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

I’m going to attempt a Derren Brown style act of psychic mentalism.

I think Ed’s next post will amount to roughly the following:

“you are right wing!!! I can’t explain why or how you are but you ARE!!!”

Griffin supports Israels right to murder civilians defend itself.

Harrys place supports Israels right to murder civilians defend itself.
Identical! Who’d've thunk it?

Griffin calls Iraq and Afghanistan “illegal wars” and fears Iran might be attacked.

Exactly identical to the far left antiwar crowd. Who’d have thunk it?

You walked into that one pal. He said it on tonight’s show.

Peter Hain, a minister of the crown, has decided that he has the right to decide which politicians and political parties the British people have a right to listen to. The BNP, what is termed the far-right, are just a bunch of dysfunctional shits; whereas the left are infiltrated in the Media, Academia, NGO’s, the Unions, the Law, the Police and also control the government.
The far-left are functional shits.

What a mess. Left and Right fascists in a tussle to see who wins the privilege of putting a bullet in my head.

That’s the succinctist I’ve ever seen our current dilemma put.

P.S. David T, you’re currently playing a blinder. Kudos to you and the rest of the HP massive. I owe you all a drink.

“P.S. David T, you’re currently playing a blinder. Kudos to you and the rest of the HP massive. I owe you all a drink.”

Seconded.

“Can’t help thinking it’d be more fun if they set the whole thing to the theme to Benny Hill.”

Here you go:

http://james.nerdiphythesoul.com/bennyhillifier/?id=3hbAAL9X2HU

It used to speed the film up too, but apparently that function is now broken :(

“if I may be so bold, butt the fuck out.”

Are you upset about something?

“And I’m still waiting for Ed’s point-by-point analysis of what precisely today’s protest outside the Beeb achieved in terms of minimising support for the BNP.”

You’re going to be waiting a long time, because I’m not going to jump through your hoops like a performing dog. Sorry about that.

“point-by-point analysis”

Point by point analysis?? For fuck’s sake.

Presumably you think the people who confronted the BUF at Cable Street were a ‘rioting’ mob

Oh great. Someone who thinks we are still living in 1936. This should be entertaining.

“point-by-point analysis”

If that’s too difficult just give us one point as to what the demo achieved.

“If that’s too difficult just give us one point as to what the demo achieved.”

Asian, black and Jewish people and immigrants who may, understandably, be terrified of the BNP and the racist violence the BNP’s appearance on TV may encourage (on the part of racists emboldened by Griffin’s acceptance onto a mainstream TV political debate) might be just that little bit less terrified having seen hundreds of angry young people – black and white – demonstrating their utter opposition to the BNP.

Many will be relieved that to see that a large number of people are prepared to take to the streets over this.

I suppose it’s possible that many of the BNP’s intended victims may find the responsible, robustly worded and even handed condemnation of both left and right in this comments thread a source of great comfort too. Even now, I have no doubt, asylum seekers are thanking God that Harry’s Place had some mildly firm words to say on the subject on the internet. So well done for that.

“Oh great. Someone who thinks we are still living in 1936.”

I think that some too-clever-by-half lefty intellectuals – you know, the ones who use long words and Latin phrases and who probably speak all posh and so on – might call that a ‘non sequitur’.

think that some too-clever-by-half lefty intellectuals – you know, the ones who use long words and Latin phrases and who probably speak all posh and so on – might call that a ‘non sequitur’.

I somehow doubt it, unless they were as dim as yourself. But even they might call the original point that anyone saying the demonstration against Griffin tonight was misguided would also have said the same thing about a demonstration 7- years ago was one.

Asian, black and Jewish people and immigrants who may, understandably, be terrified of the BNP and the racist violence the BNP’s appearance on TV may encourage (on the part of racists emboldened by Griffin’s acceptance onto a mainstream TV political debate) might be just that little bit less terrified having seen hundreds of angry young people – black and white – demonstrating their utter opposition to the BNP.

So what you are saying is that you can mind-read what all these Asian black and Jewish people think and feel that therefore you somehow have the right to act on their behalf by scaring the locality shitless with your mob violence?

I think you are existing in your own little dream world and what’s more I feel that a lot of people of all races “might” feel just the same.

So anyway what did the demo actually achieve? (Hint: that means in reality, not in your mind.)

“Asian, black and Jewish people and immigrants who may, understandably, be terrified of the BNP and the racist violence the BNP’s appearance on TV may encourage (on the part of racists emboldened by Griffin’s acceptance onto a mainstream TV political debate) might be just that little bit less terrified having seen hundreds of angry young people – black and white – demonstrating their utter opposition to the BNP.”

If I understand this paragraph correctly, you are saying that because Griffin is on TV trying to look respectable, his supporters are going to feel entitled to be even more violent than they already are? Would seem a bit like an own-goal for the BNP, wouldn’t it? Not saying that some won’t feel justified, though, they do have idiots in their ranks. But those idiots would probably feel justified to smash somebody’s head in when the traffic lights turn red anyway.

Anyway, how would hundreds of kids taking to the streets actually help us to get rid of the BNP? They target any skinhead you see, beat him to a pulp and hope that he’ll stay paralysed so that he can’t use his hands anymore? Or do you mean that they’ll do a march, shout a few slogans and then go back home for a cup of tea? I’m certainly missing the method you think will work, could you try to explain to me the things that would be done in the streets and that would work? If this method works why hasn’t it been attempted yet? Or has it been attempted but failed because of some unforeseen factor?

As you can see, I’m not yet convinced by “taking to the streets”. Why would people from visible minorities be convinced? And since when has “hundreds of people” been a “large number of people” in London?

I’m sure some are scared by the BNP, but does anyone really believe that there is a chance that they’d be in power in the UK in our lifetimes? Millwall has a better chance of lifting the European Cup. I rather think that most people would be very scared if they were caught up in the gang war you are craving for.

So what you are saying is that you can mind-read what all these Asian black and Jewish people think and feel that therefore you somehow have the right to act on their behalf by scaring the locality shitless with your mob violence?

That is EXACTLY what he is saying. And he’s right – because he FEELS it. He doesn’t have to think it through, like you too-clever-by-half types, he just KNOWS it in his noble, upstanding, right-without-justification, heroic soul.

Good boy, Ed. Good boy.

And of course there’s no reason that he should justify his accusations against other posters by, y’know, providing factual backup, or explaining how they are wrong about the SWP and UAF – because using facts, reason and logic would make him a “performing dog”.

Lucky the asians, blacks, jews and immigrants for having such a fine and noble man to speak on their behalf. I expect “they” are in a state of some sexual arousal at his masterful command of the issues affecting “their” lives.

Is Ed seriously arguing that immigrants previously terrified of the BNP will now be at peace because a group of knobheads acted like baboons outside Television Centre?

If that’s his best argument, I dread to think what his others are.

From the start i want to make it very clear i want NOTHING to do with facists,so thanks to the facists outside the bbc i and thousands like me will NOW vote bnp, as its thanks to the great un-washed trying to stop anyone from speaking [unless you agree with their views]own goal ,it was a forty yard volley.Apart from giving the bnp more reason to start marching YOU have actually kitted them out with all they needed THANKS

Glenn, I think that you have already voted for the BNP before, as your post reads as an attack against anyone who isn’t BNP. Maybe you should try to be a bit more subtle next time, if you really do want to pass for a “swing” voter.

I doubt that the protests outside the BBC achieved anything in terms of reducing support for the BNP. I doubt that the numerous anti-BNP posts on this blog in recent months reduced support for the BNP either. That doesn’t mean they weren’t worthwhile.
Popular demonstrations often don’t actually achieve anything concrete, that doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t bother demonstrating.

Popular demonstrations often don’t actually achieve anything concrete, that doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t bother demonstrating.

That is as close an admission that you are going to get that such demos are pointless and really a form of leisure activity rather than a serious political statement.

Although I’m struglling to see how 100 protestors make a “popular” demonstration.

Andrew, there are demonstrations, and then there are demonstrations.

Yesterday was an example of a particularly witless and yobbish one that hindered the very cause it thought it was advancing.

I see no reason to support that on principle.

That is as close an admission that you are going to get that such demos are pointless and really a form of leisure activity rather than a serious political statement.

Well on that basis you could say the same about blogging. After all, nothing any of us has said here will make an actual difference to anything.

I’m not sure they know what they’re protesting about, as usual. For some, it seems to be about capitalism. For others, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars (although the BNP is against both wars). For some, it is about the BNP being given a ‘platform’ (whatever that means), but the first two are never very well disguised. Do these people know how to do anything other than provoke the police into action and then fall all over the floor wailing when they are man-handled? It’s a sort of mass collective expression of grief and self-pity. Very, very weird.

Mark, as far as I can see there were some yobbish people there and there were a good many others who seriously wanted to protest againt fascists. I’m quite happy to support the latter while condemning the former.

Well on that basis you could say the same about blogging.

With the small difference that blogging does not have the intention of intimidating a neighbourhood.

Could everyone whos flinging the term fascist about give their own definition? If it merely ‘people with nasty ideas’, increase your fucking vocab.

Exile thinks Griffin has done “rather well.”

I didn’t the I could be shocked by that loony anymore. I suppose I should have remembered what a raging antisemite he occasionally reveals himself to be.

Re protesting – was there a BNP contingent at the Stop the War march yesterday? After all, the BNP is against the war. Didn’t they turn out?

John P.
“I came across an excellent article on a French Canadian website yesterday that talked of an exodus from the UK of old stock Britons. Most were going to Australia/New Zealand. When asked why they were emmigrating, many cited the outrageous levels of immigration and the resulting (negative) changes those levels have caused.”

The same French-Canadians who have generated an exodus of old-stock Anglophones from Quebec?

I didn’t know that the Poles were so terrifying that they could cause so many English to flee to Australia.

We at the BNP do hate Jews, but we hate the Muslims more so it’s all good.