Harry's Place

I noticed that when this report went public, it was briefly the second most prominent news story on the BBC news website (after the latest suicide bombing, I can’t remember if it was the day of the recent Baghdad bombings or one of the recent Pakistani bombings). After an hour or so it had disappeared completely off the front page and was buried somewhere in the Middle East section. I guess the BBC only bothered to check the reliability of the piece AFTER it made the decision to treat any old Amnesty rubbish as gospel, so long as it attacks Israel.

“Today some 90-95 per cent of Gaza’s water is polluted and unfit for human consumption”

No it true. My mate Yossi told me in the pub. He said that because Hamas and Fatah were dumping so many dead bodies in the water it was getting polluted.

(Ref: Yossi, in Kings Arms, Hendon, 17th Septermber 2009)

This article highlights three very different and very common problems. The first being the willingness of “objective” human rights organizations to believe anything bad about Israel without checking facts (or checking them with unreliable sources.) The second is the willingness of the press (especially in Europe) to jump on these accusations as if they are major breaking news. The third is, unfortunately, the willingness of supporters of Israel to defend it even when it is clearly in the wrong. While the veracity of the details of the report are questionable, nobody should think that there isn’t a lot of truth behind it. The truth is that Israel does take Palestinian water (which is illegal under international law) and that Palestinians have much less access to water than do Israelis and even Israeli settlers (who are illegal by any reasonable reading of international law). Just because Israel does something wrong doesn’t mean that these agencies have to exaggerate it and just because these agencies exaggerate it doesn’t mean that Israel is just.

“While the veracity of the details of the report are questionable, nobody should think that there isn’t a lot of truth behind it. The truth is that Israel does take Palestinian water”

And your proof of this is….?

Stephen Sizer must be an idiot , that’s all I can say. He is intelligent???? In today’s world fact checking ( all those Palestinian swimming pools should have been easy for him, he has been there, Yes? ) is easy. The world is not a jungle and the truth can be skimmed out nowadays no digging deep rivers is needed.

I am amazed at people like him. First I thought he was naive, then stupid, finally I have come to the conclusion that he trully hates Israel, doesn’t like Jews very much and is also not much of a true scholar- his fact finding analytical brain is bogus and biased. That he is a minister makes it worse , they are at least supposed to be truth seekers,, or maybe not. Perhaps I am too naive there.

Amnesty, no surprise there but perhaps Mr Sizer should do some real research on the staff of said organisation and the loads of articles and quotes by supposed neutral observers – it would enlighten him somewhat, that is, if he really seeks facts and not just jumps on the bangwagon of his emotional biase.

Pity scholarship today. It has become dung.

This the same Jonathan Hoffman from this letter in the Jewish Telegraph?

http://www.jewishtelegraph.com/letter_2.html

HAVING been a regular at the Octagon Theatre, Bolton, over the years, I was at the theatre on Saturday to watch Caryl Churchill’s Seven Jewish Children.

The afternoon was part of the Octagon’s Investigate series.

Five pro-Palestinians, two pro-Israelis and an Engage spokesman were on the panel, together with a 200-strong audience.

Richard Gold, from Engage, was, without doubt, the most intelligent and impressive speaker.

He spoke quietly with authority and explained situations and the way to progress towards peaceful co-existence.

But Zionist Federation vice-president Jonathan Hoffman was an absolute disaster.

His blustering, arrogant and aggressive verbiage, interrupting as if that was the Jonathan Hoffman Show, destroyed any positive remarks which he uttered, which by then had disappeared into the minds of the audience.

Any chance of persuading the undecided about the justification of Israel’s stance would have certainly had the opposite effect.

Pompous, patronising and pontificating is the way to gain hearts and minds. Your heart might be in the right place, but your head is away with the fairies.

I say this with a heavy heart, as there are many challenges to face.

Audience participation, chaired by David Thacker, didn’t give much positively towards Israel, but that was not surprising after Hoffman’s outbursts.

I thought the most ridiculous remark was made by Rabbi Brian Fox, who, sporting a blue yarmulke, stood up to say that to be here today is far more important than the requirements of Shabbat.

Talk about the enemies within.

Tony Sheldon,
Crumpsall,
Manchester.

The plain fact is that under “occupation” both living standards and life expectancies have soared.

“The plain fact is that under “occupation” both living standards and life expectancies have soared.”

Yes, it is amazing why Palestinians don’t kiss the ground and worship the day Israel took their land. This type on nonsense is hurtful to defending Israel. It is obvious to any outsider that Palestinians are suffering due to the occupation. The arrogance needed to try to pretend that their lives are benefited by the occupation or that Israel’s treatment of them of the Palestinians is based on Palestinian’s best interest is utterly offensive and the lowest level on the logic scale. I bet the life expectancy of Jews has gone up since the Holocaust, does that makes the Holocaust a good thing? Sheesh.

Gabriel, which day did Israel take their land? 1948? or 1967, when Israel became responsible for land and populations formerly belonging to SYRIA, JORDAN and EGYPT?

Allegedly, another NGO -Oxfam – has chosen to approach the water problems in a rather more ‘hands-on’ manner than report writing:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256799054644&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Good grief, Gabriel. As far as the “occupation” goes, I really couldn’t give a toss either way. Are Palestinians suffering? I suppose so. Would they rather not live under the thumb of a bunch of bad old Zionists? Can’t say I blame them much. Do they live longer and enjoy higher living standards now than they did when they lived under the thumb of Jordan and Egypt? Absolutely.

I bet the life expectancy of Jews has gone up since the Holocaust, does that makes the Holocaust a good thing? Sheesh.

Oh please.

“Good grief, Gabriel. As far as the “occupation” goes, I really couldn’t give a toss either way. Are Palestinians suffering? I suppose so. Would they rather not live under the thumb of a bunch of bad old Zionists? Can’t say I blame them much. Do they live longer and enjoy higher living standards now than they did when they lived under the thumb of Jordan and Egypt? Absolutely.”

World living standards as well as life expectancy have gone up significantly since 1967. People just live longer. Standard of living is better for a lot of people in jail than it is on the outside. Hell, they get meals, a bed, gym membership, the works. What a sweet, sweet life.

I bet the life expectancy of Jews has gone up since the Holocaust, does that makes the Holocaust a good thing? Sheesh.

Errr… no. For that point to make any sense, their life expectancy would have to have gone up during the Holocaust.

Basic logic seems to escape you.

“Gabriel, which day did Israel take their land? 1948? or 1967, when Israel became responsible for land and populations formerly belonging to SYRIA, JORDAN and EGYPT?”

Yawn…”there’s no such thing as Palestinians”, “There is no occupation”, repeat as required…That Palestinian land was held from 1948-1967 by Jordan and Egypt has no bearing on anything anymore. Israel became responsible for the Palestinian land but has illegally acted by moving settlers into the territory as well as taking the land and resources for itself.

Here’s more of the water in Gaza:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/booth4.jpg

>> That Palestinian land was held from 1948-1967 by Jordan and Egypt has no bearing on anything anymore.

What wonderful logic! By the same token modern Israel’s formation in 1947/8 has no bearing on anything anymore. Right?

Right?

No, of course no, funny that.

PS 80% of ‘Palestine’ is still being held by Jordan.

Yawn…”there’s no such thing as Palestinians”, “There is no occupation”, repeat as required…That Palestinian land was held from 1948-1967 by Jordan and Egypt has no bearing on anything anymore. Israel became responsible for the Palestinian land but has illegally acted by moving settlers into the territory as well as taking the land and resources for itself.

You are VERY confused!

The term “Palestinians” is a modern one from 1922 when the Mandate for Palestine came into being. The people called “Palestinians” were the Jews (by the British). The Arabs were still partly nomadic and undecided if they were really Syrian or Jordanian. It is documented that Arabs fled from Syria and Jordan to live in Palestine.

That Palestinian land was held from 1948-1967 by Jordan and Egypt has no bearing on anything anymore

Yes it does because the capture of parts of Palestine by Egypt and Jordan were definitely illegal under the terms of The Mandate. There is no transitional and recognised authority responsible for West Bank and Gaza since Res 181 and Israel’s declaration of Independence in 1948. West Bank and Gaza are intended to be replaced by the recognised authoriy of the PA but until such time West Bank and Gaza is land liberated back into Mandate rules by the war of 1967. Governance and statehood of those areas has been rejected by the Arabs when offered. You cannot say that it is illegal for Jews to live in West Bank and Gaza. It would be racist to say they are not entitled to live there.

The status of West Bank and Gaza is ‘disputed’ since the people who said it was illegal cited the illegality of transferring populations into land which is conquered. This is not the case because Israel is NOT transferring its population. Jews are simply settling on land which they are entitled by the intentions of The Mandate – which has not been replaced with any other authority so far. They are living in Mandated Palestine until such time as a legal and recognised authority takes responsibility.

If Palestinians had an automatic right to West Bank and Gaza then why is there a need for The Roadmap etc? By the UN not unilaterally declaring a Palestinian State they recognise that Palestinians do not have automatic sovreignty over West Bank and Gaza. They recognise that Israel has to give something up. That something is their rights (rights for Jews) to live in West Bank and Gaza.

If 90 to 95% of Gaza’s water is – to simplify the issue – poisonous then Gaza will very soon have a much smaller population.

We’ll read all about it in the ‘Guardian’ as well as in the inevitable reams of Fisking.

It will be recalled that Gaza now has well over twice the population it had prior to the 1967.

AlecM – I mentioned the Lauren Booth photos at the meeting

Those pesky palestinian slaves should be happy their Zionist masters have fed them, allowed them water and allowed them to have children in their plantation eh.

Good one, Jonathan.

You know, Lee, you’re really making it difficult for Nick to claim the BNP was the only party which supported Israeli action against Hamas in Gaza.

Gabriel:
“During the 1970’s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world-ahead of such “wonders” as Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. Although GNP per capita grew somewhat more slowly, the rate was still high by international standards, with per-capita GNP expanding tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan’s $1,050, Egypt’s $600, Turkey’s $1,630, and Tunisia’s $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria’s, more than four times Yemen’s, and 10 percent higher than Jordan’s (one of the betteroff Arab states). Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.
Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.
No less remarkable were advances in the Palestinians’ standard of living. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.”

http://www.palestinefacts.org/what_occupation.html

So there is no doubt at all: it’s Israel’s fault that there are so many Palestinians on the Westbank and Gaza, and that there was quite a bit of development since 1967 – all of which of course costs a lot of water…

Sounds like Amnesty has been infiltrated by liars and those with dubious agendas.

Sad really, it was once a great organisation.

Live long…

“This is the equivalent of about 300 litres per day per person.”

Something wrong there.

Well done for attending, Jonathan. I see they didn’t exclude you, in the end.

Sizer says Israel has been stealing Palestinian water since 1948, that the west bank aquifer is Palestinian not Israeli. But Israel accesses it from inside Israel, and depends on it as its major fresh water supply. What was Israel supposed to do? Wait for the Palestinians to deny it to them, just as they tried to deny them the right to any state (if not existence) inside historical Palestine?

Sizer thinks Israeli water is theft even as he thinks Israel is theft.

Lordy, what a trashed brand Amnesty is these days. HRW too. The gangs that can’t report straight.

What I don’t get is: hasn’t Amnesty heard of the new “water bill” which will heighten the cost of water according to the number of people in a house? According to this new bill, if a house uses more than a set in advance amount of water (calculated according to the number of residents in a home), they will have to pay a high fine. It’s been discussed a lot in Israel. Shouldn’t they have checked it out or something? mentioned it in their report (right next to the pictures of the swimming pools maybe ;) )

Where did Amnesty get its info from anyway?

Apparently not from PA sources like the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics because the PCBS’s data appears to contradict Amnesty’s claims

Lbnaz — maybe Ben White is now Amnesty’s water expert? In any case, something’s going down the drain….

In Israel I learned that Israel’s policy of forbidding private well owners from selling untreated and untested drinking water to entire villages without any checks on quality – the traditional method of obtaining and distributing water in Arab villages – has been misrepresented as Israel stealing Palestinian water/cutting off their water supplies.

Furthermore, chaotic administration in many Israeli Arab villages means that rates are not paid resulting in public services – including water and electricity for public amenities such as street lighting – being inconsistently and poorly supplied – again this is misrepresented as discrimination against Arabs.

Why cannot people accept that Palestinians, along with other human beings, have AGENCY. They are not impassive victims. What has happened to the billions of aid dollars poured into Palestinian coffers over decades? Where is the Palestinian infrastructure and amenities that should have flowed from it? Why has it not resulted in Palestinian jobs and food on Palestinian tables?

Well actually, we know. It’s flowed into private Swiss bank accounts and been used for the military and propaganda war on Israel being waged throughout the Arab world.

Every time NGOs parrot Palestinian accusations they line up alongside racists who would like to see the Jewish state wiped out and its Jewish inhabitants thrown into the sea.

@ Lee John Barnes

“Those pesky palestinian slaves should be happy their Zionist masters have fed them, allowed them water and allowed them to have children in their plantation eh.”

The true Jew-hating face of the BNP peeks out from behind Nick Griffin’s carefully constructed screen, eh? Better watch out, Lee. Nick can be ruthless with those who go off message! Remember Mark Collett?

The most important points in the discussion are:
* growth of the population (6x) especially in Gaza thanks to the prosperity of jobs in Israel – till Oslo – and Israeli health measures which reduced infant mortality from up to 150 per mil (pre 1914 UK) in Gaza and 60 per mil in Hebron & Nablus districts (inter war pre-penicillin UK levels)to Western levels (20 per mil 60’s & 70’s, and 10 per mil now: 2000+).
* Arab theft from Israeli laid water lines especially in the ex-Jordanian West Bank, and wild-cat well sinking especially in Gaza, which exploded (reports of 2000) since the PLO took over with Oslo.
* failure, so far, of the PA especially in Samaria (Nablus District) to build more sewage works and recoup water as Israel & London do.
* consequent over-drawing from the coastal aquifer in the Gaza Strip which is letting sea water force its way in and up the water table – freshwater “floats” on salt water whether sea or inland brackish.
* In 1948 there were fewer than two million people between the Mediterranean & the R. Jordan/Arava. Now there are ten million probably eleven people on the same patch.
* The quickest way to save water for all is to purify the sewage for irrigation as Israel has been doing succesfully for twenty years; and “double plumb” the grey water (spent on washing selves, dishes and laundry) to re-use it for toilet flushing before sewerage so saving a third of urban water usage. This is premised on Western domestic urban water use as: 1/3rd washing, 1/3rd WC’s, 1/3rd cooking and drinking; and Israeli long-standing figures that a population needs 100 million cubic metres per million people (100 m3 per cap)for all NON agricultural uses while agriculture can use everything available.

Worth a look:

http://www.thejerusalemgiftshop.com/israelnews/editorial/38-editors-choice/2033-amnesty-water-report-waterboards-the-truth.html

Mr Hoffman’s piece seems a little biased. He argues that figures in the Amnesty report are wrong because they’re taken from the (supposedly biased) Palestinian Authority, and corrects the figures by quoting from the (supposedly unbiased) Israeli Water Authority. But what reason can he give for such partiality? Isn’t he simply making the same mistake he accuses Amnesty of making? Admittedly the Palestinian Authority may be difficult to trust – its interests are directly involved in this issue, but the same is true of the Israeli Water Authority.

Gabriel, well done for making some sensible points. The Palestinian question is not simply about human development, it is about political emancipation and human rights. Even Hoffman acknowledges that Israel gives more water to its citizens than to its subjects in the Occupied Territories. The reason, of course, is that they don’t get to vote in Israeli elections, a point Matt Yglesias notes: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/10/water-rights-in-israel-palestine.php.

To see the way Amnesty, an organisation that has done so much to ensure that all people, regardless of differences, are treated with respect, has been criticised in the way it has been here, is a really sad spectacle to see.

Is there anything in the report you agree with Johnathan?