Harry's Place

I thought HP thought hasan was a closet islamist…

anyway i expect a rational and coherent thread on this subject,….

also lucy and other HP contributors…do the amount of nutetrs you attract ever concern you????

The last thing we need now is people who have never served in the military making generalizations about Muslims who have volunteered to serve in the US armed forces– which of course includes some who have fought and died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You’ve got to read the comments thread under this post justifying the attack…

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/11/fort-hood.html

Another mass murder in the name of Allah. Sound’s like Jihad to me.

I thought it was deeply unfortunate when it turned out this guy was a Muslim. It’s bad news for Islamophobia and the racist type idea that ordinary Muslims will one day all turn on their fellow Americans. But I was impressed with how the American media dealt with it last night – even Fox was quite responsible about it. Whether that will continue, who knows. But it’s hard to imagine this happening in the UK and it NOT being described as possibly terrorist related. Perhaps this is due to them not having a Pakstani problem, but nevertheless it was a sensible cautious approach in the early stages.

But as more information comes out, we can’t ignore the religious issue.

There,s nothing to see here. There’s nothing at all special or particular about this case; it reminds me of the Polytechnique and that incident in Afganistan two days ago that left 5 British soldiers dead. Evangelicals are the ones you have to watch because they killed an abortion doctor. Religion can motivate a Christian to kill, you know

HP’s primary authors had concluded Hasan was a Shia sectarian, and not necessarily an Islamist.

Still don’t know why he had to be cited.

Richard Seymour did describe the Virginia tech massacre by a mentally ill mad man as a “slave revolt”, so I guess we can’t be too surprised about the reaction of his followers to this latest killing spree.

Saeed

Yes, it does.

“The context is a war. Hasan switched sides. All kinds of people do this during wars.” – Michael Rosen

The last thing we need now is people who have never served in the military making generalizations about Muslims who have volunteered to serve in the US armed forces– which of course includes some who have fought and died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I heard he had a Bill O’Reilly book in his car, which would open the field for Gene to make generalizations.

But let’s see: A Muslim shouting “Allahu Akbar” opens fire on a roomfull of unarmed Americans, but let’s be very very very careful about what we say. Tippytippytippytoes, everyone.

The American government does not want and will not collaborate any people they regard will construe this issue into the usual Jihad and “moslem” mantra. This will make the “Anti-Jihad” even far more desperate and will interest me to follow where they go from here.

Bruce Bawer follow the coverage.

Living in Norway, I get CNN International, which is different from CNN in the U.S., though when major stories are breaking in the U.S. the international network often switches to the U.S. feed for hours at a time. CNN International’s sponsors are disproportionately Middle Eastern airlines, tourism authorities, and such; so it was that in between ads for the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, for Abu Dhabi tourism, for some art show in Abu Dhabi, and for the Dubai World Championship, not to mention cozy promos for an apparently soft-feature series called Inside the Middle East (presented “in association with Qatar Foundation”), CNN reporters kept hammering home the line that Hasan had been the victim of anti-Muslim prejudice by his military colleagues. Repeatedly they read out, and showed onscreen, a long statement from the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) condemning the massacre — never mentioning, of course, CAIR’s well-established terrorist links.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/fort-hood-massacre-a-day-of-courage-and-cowardice/

self-proclaimed “scholar of Islamic history”

Hasan, to my knowledge, has no qualifications (other than being Muslim – not much of a qualification for ad-hoc writing on Islamic studies in my experience) in the Islamic sciences, so why should we ‘trust’ what he has to say about Islam? I, on the other hand do, so I reserve the right to doubt Mehdi Hasan’s self-proclaimed expert status on all things Islam.

Spencer is not a journalist and we don’t pay for his opinions. Anyone visiting a site called Jihadwatch should be under no illusions that they’ll be reading anything resembling objective, impartial reporting.

Deductive reasoning points us in the right direction here. It’s just a shame that the usual suspects (on the comment thread here too) would have people suspend the faculty of critical thinking for some people and not others (cf. the Suffolk farmer).

Islamophobic bigots

Islamophobia is an awful term; as unhelpful to the pursuit of civil rights as its fellow shibboleth homophobia.

He has dressed up as a Saudi

Nah. Where’s his igaal, ghutrah and dishdaashah? He’s wearing exactly what many ‘cultural’ Muslims would wear in the Levant and Egypt on a Friday.

Mehdi Hasan’s attitude to Robert Spencer is based on the fact that the latter is not deluded by him and his like. He has a very clear perspective on Islamofascism and knows a jihadist when he sees one. The reason why Mehdi Hasan is upset by the actions of his military namesake is that these instances shine a bright light, albeit briefly, through the fog of lies and deceit perpetrated by him and the useful idiots who put him into his position.

“But as more information comes out, we can’t ignore the religious issue.”

No-one can be sure of the true nature of this man’s motivation, and I would humbly suggest that speculation at this stage is incautious, bordering on irresponsible. It may be that we will never know, but of one thing we can be sure: this man’s actions have provided ample fuel for polemicists on both sides, and that should be a matter of regret for all.

Terrorist, Jihadi hero or plain nut-job? I don’t know, but I fear too many folks will just pick the one that best fits their well-established prejudices and shoe-horn any facts to fit.

My sympathies go to the families of his victims, which includes his own family in the US.

I should add that I find the comparison of a suicide bomber to a soldier falling on a live grenade to be specious at best, egregious at worst.
One is seeking to take life, the other seeks to save it.

“You’ve got to read the comments thread under this post justifying the attack…”

I feel dirty now. *shudder*

I like the way Lenny writes “men and women trained to kill and who experience the brutality of enforcing occupations in Afghanistan and Iraq, suffer from mental breakdowns, suicides and commit murder….. “. The shooter hadn’t been to either Iraq or Afghanistan.

On the question of whether this is an Islamist terrorist attack, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I’m thinking that it is probably a duck.

Stan

Staying silent and denying the Alluha Akbar obvious for the sake of pee cee sensibilities will only lead to an American BNP.

Its absolutely right that just because a mass murderer has a Muslim name his act of mass murder is an act of Jihad, but when you cite the evidence you have it is clear that the New Statesman’s Mehdi Hasan is waging propaganda Jihad against Robert Spencer. You really do have to feel for genuinely patriotic American Muslim soldiers after events like this, but there are too many of them and you can’t blame their comrades in arms from viewing them with suspicion. The signs were clearly there for Major Jihad. If we weren’t so paralysed by the Marxist mind control of Political Correctness, Major Jihad would have been carted off to Guantanamo with the rest of his Jihadi buddies before he had a chance to put words into action. This throught might not make a lot of people here feel ‘happy’, but its how defend democracy from totalitarian madmen like this.

A Lenins Tomb commenter stumbles into the appalling truth.

But it could also be a military/intelligence psy-ops effort to get “one of them” to attack US troops on US soil. The original blog post and others have noted the white supremacist, Judeo-Christian supremacist echo chamber in the US: this is quite a boost for them. That would be consistent with a recent host of FBI “terrorism ring busts” which always amount to a well-financed provocateur talking up a crime with young Muslim men – and then, having planned a crime (with the FBI supplying the money, arms, maps, etc), the suits and badges swarm in to nab the “suspects”.

With enough drugs and conditioning, anyone could shoot dozens of people.

Dammit Mesquito, you’re the Texan operative of the illuminati you were supposed to cover up the truth.

You really do have to feel for genuinely patriotic American Muslim soldiers after events like this, but there are too many of them and you can’t blame their comrades in arms from viewing them with suspicion.

What do you mean, “too many of them”?

And yes, there were clearly warning signs about Major Hasan that were ignored. I assume there will be some changes in military policy as a result– sadly too late for the Fort Hood victims.

Hmm, lessee… Are there any precedents for this kind of behaviour in American history? Perhaps Google could be of assistance…

Killeen, Texas (near Fort Hood, btw) 1991: Ex-Navy psycho George Hennard goes nuts, shoots 23 people in a cafeteria.

Virginia Tech (Hasan a former student, btw) 2007: Seung-Hui Cho goes nuts, shoots 33 people.

Patrick Sherrill, 14 murders, 1986; Joseph Harris, 4 murders, 1991; Thomas McIlvane, 5 murders, 1991; Lawrence Jasion, 2 murders, Mark Hilburn, 3 murders, both on the same day 1993; Jennifer Marco, 6 murders, 2006 and plenty more where they came from – schools, colleges, offices, factories.

So what have we got to go on here? Middle-aged guy, no sex life worth the name, pissed off in a job he hates, being forced by his bosses to do stuff he doesn’t want to do? Ladies and gents, this has “Man Goes Postal At Work” written all over it in nine-foot letters. I guess we’ll find out from the man himself soon enough, although I imagine plenty of people will have decided for themselves and moved onto some new daftness by then.

It’s probably worth mentioning that nobody assumed Cho, Hennard, Harris and Klebold, Whitman etc. were jihadists, rather than pissed-off nutters. I wonder why it’s so different this time?

The last thing we need now is people who have never served in the military making generalizations about Muslims who have volunteered to serve in the US armed forces– which of course includes some who have fought and died in Iraq and Afghanistan says Gene.

How bloody patronising! It’s this sort of stupid naïve commentary that stops rational thinking. The American version of the Islam of Louis Farakhan and Co is nothing other than a blindfold; still to be lifted from the eyes of the American public. The Nation of Islam was a pussy in comparison to what the rest of the world is exposed to.
As an intelligent man surely he must be aware of the reality of Islamist influence prevailing in Europe. Surely 9-11 2001 has not been so long in passing that it has been forgotten. A recent visit to the States showed me that as a nation so dominant on the world stage, the general public is largely ignorant of the ambitions of HuT, MB and all their murderous acolytes lurking under the blanket the self proclaimed ‘religion of peace’.

Of course not all Muslims are terrorists, but before they were ‘terrorists’, these murderers were ostensibly moderate Muslims. The true Islam, as it was at conception, is militaristic, political, and ruthless; its foot-soldiers are already well embedded in our artificially imposed multicultural society.

In WW2 Japanese families in the US were interned: In Europe it was the Germans and Austrians amongst others. Why? – because they were regarded as a potential enemy within. Made sense then – makes sense now. Islamists are at war with the West but it seems that some people are too dumb to take them and their ambitions seriously.

Sun Tzu said the first principle in the Art of War is – ‘War is Deceit’. Nothing has changed since then and is as true today.

It’s far to early to say whether Major Hasan is a hardcore islamist or not.

It’s probably worth mentioning that nobody assumed Cho, Hennard, Harris and Klebold, Whitman etc. were jihadists, rather than pissed-off nutters. I wonder why it’s so different this time?

You really couldn’t make FlyingFuckwit up if you tried.

This is of course the new Sunny Hundal line. Screaming AllahAckbar means it was all the Jews’ fault or something.

I don’t think this has anything to do with Islam or politics. The guy was clearly fucking mental. I mean look at that video footage of him going into a shop in his nightshirt and hat.
And I don’t know what ‘Allahu Akbar’ means – which he reportedly shouted when he was gunning those people down – but I’m sure it’s just some incoherent gibberish, the product of his broken mind.

I wonder why it’s so different this time?

Well, soaring vermin, it’s not every day that a psychiatrist writes apologia for suicide bombings, shouts Allahu Akbar, and opens fire on a roomfull of unarmed colleagues.

So what have we got to go on here? Middle-aged guy, no sex life worth the name, pissed off in a job he hates, being forced by his bosses to do stuff he doesn’t want to do? Ladies and gents, this has “Man Goes Postal At Work” written all over it in nine-foot letters.

What a terrible middle-ageophobic comment.

Well, soaring vermin, it’s not every day that a psychiatrist writes apologia for suicide bombings, shouts Allahu Akbar, and opens fire on a roomfull of unarmed colleagues.

Perhaps they misheard and it was “Greenpeace Akbar” instead.

Perhaps Hasan was worried about Climate Change and decided to reduce (other people’s) Carbon Footprints?

This hypothesis of mine is about as fucking credible as FlyingFuckwits inane defense of murderous clerical fascists.

The American version of the Islam of Louis Farakhan and Co

The vast majority of US Muslims have nothing to do with Farakhan.

In WW2 Japanese families in the US were interned: In Europe it was the Germans and Austrians amongst others. Why? – because they were regarded as a potential enemy within. Made sense then – makes sense now.

What an insult to the thousands of Japanese-Americans who served bravely and crucially in the war. It didn’t make any sense at all– it was a black chapter in our history. Are you now advocating internment of all Muslims in America?

Given that the guy’s a psychiatrist, it has strong echoes of Super Cannes, the JG Ballard novel. Should it be described as a Freudian or Jungian attack?

Are you now advocating internment of all Muslims in America?

I certainly am.

I certainly am.

Shocker.

Consistency is my watchword, you will agree.

When Morgoth finishes locking people up, the only ones remaining at liberty will be himself, HAL9000, and possibly Richard Dawkins.

And Cradle of Filth.

Hey, I’m just pointing out how the guy fits the office rage killer profile, what with all those examples of previous incidents i cited. Maybe the guy was psycho terrorist number one, who knows? I might wait a bit before I decide, myself, but if you lot want to hop onto your little kennels and start barking furious like angry chihuahuas, be my guest.

shouts Allahu Akbar

Maybe they misheard and he was really shouting “Go Wolverines!!?” Probably best to hold on until we’ve established what the ration of solid evidence to utter bullshit is, I’d have thought.

When Morgoth finishes locking people up, the only ones remaining at liberty will be himself, HAL9000, and possibly Richard Dawkins.

That’s pretty close to my ideal dinner party anyway.

Morgoth,

With the advent of media technologies, Muslims are already condemned as “suspects” thus doing the job of internment.

Probably best to hold on until we’ve established what the ration of solid evidence to utter bullshit is, I’d have thought.

For some reason I suspect that FlyingFuckwit will never want us to find out though.

With the advent of media technologies, Muslims are already condemned as “suspects” thus doing the job of internment

With the advent of Islam, more like.

The shouting of Allahu Akbar is consistent with a religious muslim going nuts just as much as with an Islamist motivated attack (whether lone or part of a network)

I want to know more about Morgoth’s dinner party!

No matter how you frame this debate, the issue always comes back to Islam. Once again we see a Muslims doing what the Quran teaches (9:111).

Once again we see many people in the West making excuses for actions done by Muslims in the name of their god. We see false comparisons to other vile actions in which there is no record of the murderer yelling “Jesus saves” “Via Buddha” “This is for Joseph Smith” or whatever.

HP has good intentions in defending “moderate” Muslims from backlash and intolerance but these same intentions (”only a few bad guys that misinterpret Islam”) are the ones that allow the hate and violence to thrive.

Until Muslims understand that Islam has a problem, nothing will change. Muslims need to ask themselves why hate and violence comes so easy to Muslims. Muslims need to take a long hard look at the teachings of the Quran and the life of the man after whose name they say “Praise be unto him”. Muslims need to be told that aspects of their faith and many of their daily practices, especially in Islamic countries” are vile and unacceptable. In case you don’t know I am refering to the institutionalized discrimination and persecution of non-Muslims, women, jews and gays in Muslims countries. Our leader give Muslims a pass on this as if it were not relevant. Why should we think that Muslims in the West are any different from those in Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, malaysia, Lybia, etc….?

Bad times are coming. I blame Islam and people in the West that refuse to be honest about these things.

Kactuz

an a soldier buy him/herself out of the American army? I know you can from the British Army. Presumably, he would have had to have repaid a lot of money to the Army though for his expensive medical education. I also read tonight that the fellow gave away all his furniture on the morning of the attack. Obviously didn’t plan on living. Wonder if he is miffed that he wasn’t killed?

Staying silent and denying the Alluha Akbar obvious for the sake of pee cee sensibilities will only lead to an American BNP.

Mental note to self: Must tell my local supermarket owner who always shouts the same whenever a power-cut blacks out his shop that his words are but the thin-end of the wedge of BNP-style dictatorship…

“It is also worth reading Mehdi Hasan’s excellent piece on suicide bombing.”

Hasan is Shia. As far as I know, suicide bombing is universally condemned by Shia scholars.

Suicide bombing is a ‘Sunni’ thing.

“I want to know more about Morgoth’s dinner party!”

Freshly slaughtered chicken blood will be served, after the trampling of the communion wafers and just prior to the appearance of the Goat of Mendes.

“Suicide bombing is a ‘Sunni’ thing.”

Tell that to the US marines bombed by Shia in Beirut , or indeed the victims of suicide bombers associated with the largely Assyrian christian SSNP, or indeed those of the Hindu Tamil tigers. I don’t think think any individual religion holds the monopoly.

RezaV :

Bollocks.

“Iran has formed battalions of suicide bombers.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191910,00.html

“According to Iranian officials, 40,000 trained suicide bombers are ready for action.”

So much for “Suicide bombing is a ‘Sunni’ thing.”

Whilst taking on board all the usual caveats (and marking down amusingly old Rodents attempt to position himself as the only person who could possibly be being objective) It is interesting to speculate whether if this was an actual terrorist attack (and not just a lone nutter acting either on the word of Allah or just because they had run out of krispy kremes in the local walmart) and it is in some way linked to the other recent shooting in a similar style of the British soldiers in Afghanistan what that tells us about the limited ability to organise attacks of the leadership of whicherver organisation may have been involved here.

Freshly slaughtered chicken blood will be served, after the trampling of the communion wafers and just prior to the appearance of the Goat of Mendes.

To be fair to Morgoth, he’d make sure it was an outdoor reared, cornfed chicken.

Staying silent and denying the Alluha Akbar obvious for the sake of pee cee sensibilities will only lead to an American BNP.

What a worrying thought. We wouldn’t want a major American racist movement would we? They might wear white hoods, plant burning crosses in peoples lawns and call themselves something like Qu Qux Qlan. Nick Griffin might come over and address their non-violent branch. That would never do.

Can a soldier buy him/herself out of the American army?

He was a major so buying himself out as not required. Though how you can be a devout muslim and a psychologist is beyond me. No wonder he snapped, the internal inconsistency must have really affected him…

Rank, in order of American patriotism, aand opposition to Islamic jihad:

1.) Major Hasan, Islamic jihad at Fort Hood;

2.) Mehdi Hasan, political editor NS;

3.) Robert Spencer, editor of ‘Jihadwatch’ and author of several pieces today there, including “Jihad at Fort Hood”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/spencer-jihad-at-fort-hood.html

Are you now advocating internment of all Muslims in America?

Gimme strength! – Just wake up to what is happening in the world.

Assyrian christian SSNP

The SSNP was and still is a secular party with members of various faiths and religious denominations. I believe the Tigers are secular too. Hizbollah, on the other hand, explicitly made their justifications for terrorism with reference to religious precedent and doctrine.

He was quite ‘devout’ apparently, a devout Muslim slaughtering infidels for the glory of Allah.

“On the day (of the battle) of the Trench, the Ansar were saying, “We are those who have sworn allegiance to Muhammad for Jihaid (for ever) as long as we live.” The Prophet replied to them, “O Allah! There is no life except the life of the Hereafter. So honor the Ansar and emigrants with Your Generosity.
My brother and I came to the Prophet and I requested him to take the pledge of allegiance from us for migration. He said, “Migration has passed away with its people.” I asked, “For what will you take the pledge of allegiance from us then?” He said, “I will take (the pledge) for Islam and Jihad.” Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 208:

Could some Islamic expert explain to me what that means?

To me it sounds as if this devout Muslim was Just following his Islamic orders, wasn’t he?

If this had been a Christian Lunatic or a Jewish Lunatic or even a Buddhist Lunatic then Political Correctness be damned, he or she would have been scrutinized with the Leftist Microscope, but a Muslim, no no no, we must not go there, he can be an oppressed Muslim sure, he can be conscientious objector Muslim sure, he can be a good American Muslim sure, anything but a devout follower of Islam, anything but anything except another mass murdering psychotic Muslim killing in the name of Islam.

How many dead bodies is it going to take for people to get the message, as many as Pot’s 2.5 million, as many as Hitlers 6 million, Stalin’s 20 million, Mao’s 70 million, how many for Allah? 100 million? 200 million? How many will it take before people stop pretending Islam is a ‘religion of peace’ because it isn’t, it never has been.

“If We had mercy on them and removed the distress which is on them, they would obstinately persist in their transgression, wandering in distraction to and fro.”

“And already We overtook them with chastisement, but they were not submissive to their Lord, nor do they humble themselves.”

“Until when We open upon them a door of severe chastisement, lo! they are in despair at it.”

Was Mohammed talking about the Muslims or the infidels?

Let there be no other religion except Islam, is that how the saying goes?
Convert the whole world to Islam, is that what the muslim holy scriptures say?

Hate to break it to you my fellow westerners, but millions of Muslims believe this shit, pretending they don’t is not going to make it go away, lots and lots and lots of muslims, really, really, really believe that “god” has told them to convert the whole planet to Islam and what’s more to kill those who don’t like it.

You see I can read, so if that is what I think Islamic Scriptures say then surely the law of averages says that many others are going to come to the same conclusion, unless of course it is only non-muslims who are misinterpreting these scriptures, interesting hypothesis, I wonder are all the Islamist Theocratic Lunatics not really Muslims? Was this devout Islamic person who murdered all these people yesterday in fact not a Muslim at all?

One last thing, why would an omnipotent all powerful “god” need anyone to convert anyone to anything?

He is supposed to be all powerful, isn’t he, why then doesn’t he just pop down and tell us he wants us all to be Muslims or Christians or Jews? What’s the matter? Too busy creating new worlds, new civilizations, too busy going where no “God” has gone before?

Is it just me or does belief in a “GOD” seem utterly ludicrous to anyone else, does anyone else believe, as I truly believe, that the more devout a Human becomes, the more sinister they appear.

Seriously is it just me or what.

Rank, in order of American patriotism, aand opposition to Islamic jihad:

3.) Robert Spencer, editor of ‘Jihadwatch’ and author of several pieces today there, including “Jihad at Fort Hood”

Where would you rank Ayman Taha and Kareem Khan?

“2 Dead in Orlando High-Rise Shooting Reports: Fla Police surrounnd high-rise after 8 people shot” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/national/main5551361.shtml?tag=stack

Hopefully this is not in any way related to yesterday’s tragedy at Ft. Hood.

There will be a Moment of Silence for the Ft. Hood victims today at 2:30 PM, Eastern Standard Time.

From from the comments on LT:

Militarily, 12 soldiers were killed, and that’s how the Afghan situation at least is being decided currently. Frankly, that’s 12 soldiers who will not be killing Iraqis and Afghans. This likely means security will have to be increased at U.S. military bases, further drawing down deployments to the killing fields.

In any case, the above has nothing to do with Hasan’s particular reasons, it’s simply a consideration of what it means morally to kill 12 U.S. soldiers just about ready to kill Afghans and Iraqis.

No one needs to recommend that others follow in Hasan’s footsteps, but should we condemn him? And condemning and disowning Hasan, throwing him to the dogs so to speak, without knowing his motivations is the current ‘leftist’ move. Where is the leftism in that?
fairleft | 6 Nov, 18:16 | #

The Scientologists must be having a field day telling everyone how evil and murder-prone psychiatrists are.

Obviously feelings will run high in the aftermath of a tragedy like this. But once tempers have calmed, we must engage in the more difficult task of understanding the sources of such madness. Most often it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair.

NEWSWEEK pumps her bilges:

What if Thursday’s atrocious slaughter at Fort Hood only signals that the worst is yet to come? The murder scene yesterday afternoon at the Killeen, Texas, military base, the largest in the country, was heart-wrenching. Details remained murky, but at least 13 are dead and 30 wounded in a killing spree that may momentarily remind us of a reality that most Americans can readily forget: soldiers and their families are living, and bending, under a harrowing and unrelenting stress that will not let up any time soon. And the U.S. military could well be reaching a breaking point as the president decides to send more troops into Afghanistan.

It’s hard to draw too many conclusions right now, but we do know this: Thursday night, authorities shot and then apprehended the lone suspect, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan. A psychiatrist who was set to deploy to Iraq at the end of the month, Hasan reportedly opened fire around the Fort Hood Readiness Center, where troops are prepared for deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. And though this scene is a most extreme and tragic outlier, it comes at a time when the stress of combat has affected so many soldiers individually that it makes it increasingly difficult for the military as a whole to deploy for wars abroad. In an abrupt news conference, Lt. Gen. Robert Cone, the top commander at Fort Hood, said in response to the shooting that authorities would “increase the security presence” on the military base. On the surface, it seemed like a logical enough plan. But it makes one wonder how much any kind of lockdown will either get at the root causes of soldier stresses or better prepare them for more battle.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/11/06/is-fort-hood-a-harbinger-nidal-malik-hasan-may-be-a-symptom-of-a-military-on-the-brink.aspx

Most often it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair.

Oh, bite me.

“2 Dead in Orlando High-Rise Shooting Reports: Fla Police surrounnd high-rise after 8 people shot” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/national/main5551361.shtml?tag=stack

Hopefully this is not in any way related to yesterday’s tragedy at Ft. Hood.

The suspect in that shooting is named Jason Rodriguez. Perhaps we should intern all Hispanics in the US.

Well, there’s been a number of things reported about the circumstances surrounding this case, but we still need to discuss what caused one individual to turn his gun on fellow servicemen and women, don’t you think? The essence of this tragedy, it seems to me, derives from a fundamental absence of empathy on the part of the attacker: an inability to imagine, or connect with, the humanity and suffering of others. Such a failure of empathy, such numbness to the pain of a child or the desperation of a parent, is not innate; nor, history tells us, is it unique to a particular culture, religion, or ethnicity. It may find expression in a particular brand of violence, and may be channeled by particular demagogues or fanatics.

Bite me. It’s not a fucking tragedy. It’s an outrage.

The suspect in that shooting is named Jason Rodriguez. Perhaps we should intern all Hispanics in the US.

Indeed, there is a very American aspect to shooting up a bunch of people because someone has a problem. There’s no denying that aspect to this. But the question is the motive. Shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’ does point to Islamist leanings.

“So what have we got to go on here? Middle-aged guy, no sex life worth the name, pissed off in a job he hates, being forced by his bosses to do stuff he doesn’t want to do? Ladies and gents, this has “Man Goes Postal At Work” written all over it in nine-foot letters”

Never a better description of Yaakov Teitel, Flying Rodent. You certainly do now how to understand rage. Bravo!

*do know*

On the face of it simple parsimony would suggest another Koranic literalist Islamonutter. If the reports detailed by Lucy Lips above are true, this character seems to clearly have been unfit to serve in US forces, let alone hold a commission or provide psychological counciling for traumatised service men. That’ll have to be addressed

Regardless of this particular case; there is undoubtedly a de facto Islamic 5th column in the West, including in the US.

A very significant proportion of Muslims are part of this to varying degrees; from those holding views inimical to a pluralist, liberal democracy, but who are themselves essentially passive, through the full spectrum, on to full-on active Jihadism.

Sure, it’s unfortunate for self identifying Muslims who are not Koranic literalists, they are liable to be increasingly looked at askance, I guess shit happens. Best to get clear water between themselves and Koranic literalists. Genuinely moderate Muslims still get a great deal out of ‘the West’.

No, I agree with Conciliator – this event may well have been contributed to by factors, of some kind. It’s very important to remember that.

once tempers have calmed, we must engage in the more difficult task of understanding the sources of such madness. Most often it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair.

I find it rather difficult to believe that a major in the US armed forces is living in a climate of poverty, ignorance, helplessness and despair.

Perhaps we should intern all Hispanics in the US.

Did he yell “La Raza” before opening fire?

We will have to make sure, despite our rage, that any responding action takes into account the lives of innocent civilians. We will have to be unwavering in opposing bigotry or discrimination directed against neighbors and friends of Middle Eastern descent. Finally, we will have to devote far more attention to the monumental task of raising the hopes and prospects of the embittered across the globe—not just in the Middle East, but also in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Eastern Europe and within our own shores.

i…understanding the sources of such madness. Most often it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance

True that a considerable number of Muslims world wide are illiterate and poor, but this is not really the root cause for the extremists they produce. The root cause is their slavish attachment to the extemist mentality comes from the writings in Koran and the interpretations manufactured by their religious dictators. It is the only ‘faith’ that values death instrea of life. They are ignorant dupes scared shitless by the Mullahs and Scholars in this life and ‘the next’.

Their ‘madness’ is indoctrinated from childhood and through peer pressure from all around in their adult years. All religions should be categorised as a form of madness, but Islam takes the prize, it’s just that they seem to be more proficient at it.

i…understanding the sources of such madness. Most often it grows out of a climate of poverty and ignorance

True that a considerable number of Muslims world wide are illiterate and poor, but this is not really the root cause for the extremists they produce. The root cause is their slavish attachment to the extemist mentality comes from the writings in Koran and the interpretations manufactured by their religious dictators. It is the only ‘faith’ that values death instead of life. They are ignorant dupes scared shitless by the Mullahs and Scholars in this life and ‘the next’.

Their ‘madness’ is indoctrinated from childhood and through peer pressure from all around in their adult years. All religions should be categorised as a form of madness, but Islam takes the prize, it’s just that they seem to be more proficient at it.

“Finally, we will have to devote far more attention to the monumental task of raising the hopes and prospects of the embittered across the globe—not just in the Middle East, but also in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Eastern Europe and within our own shores.”

You mean we should all just be nice to each other, big hugs and kisses and all that ‘brotherhood of man’ bullshit, great idea, wonderful reasoning.

Now go and tell that to the mega rich Whabbi religious psychopaths, you know the ones from the home of Islam, the ones who say that their “religious” book prohibits muslims from being nice to unbelievers, in fact why don’t you go to Saudi Arabia and set up a Christian Church or even a socialist community centre, so as to preach your brotherhood of man gospel.

That’s a Good idea, isn’t it?

Conciliator does a pretty good parody of a divinity school weenie.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Weblogs/TWSFP/TWSFPView.asp#13917

Heed the words of the Commander-in-Chief :)

If he’s of Palestinian origin, surely his motivations are at least part political? Hamas makes no distinction between the political and religious (neither does Fatah, really, but Hamas is more explicit and obviously Islamist).

Palestinian-Americans have made such attacks before. But this is the first military on military.

Spencer Ackerman writes:

It’s worth remembering that nearly all mass shootings in this country are committed by white men. Do we have a white-man problem on our hands?

I assume there will be some changes in military policy as a result– sadly too late for the Fort Hood victims.

Ah well! So much for that!

But the policies that alloweed this guy to remain in the military have been championed by leftists, Gene.

Ditto for those policies that led to 7/7

How could someone who runs a jihadist website ( and Hasan ran one) praising suicide bombers and celebrated the killing of Western troops have been allowed to remain in the armed forces, let alone achieve the rank of an officer?

This pee-cee idiocy has rendered us braindead.

And to instruct Gene on the differences between Hasan’s and Rodriguez’s motivation, Rodriguez wasn’t screaming “La Raza”

The essence of this tragedy, it seems to me, derives from a fundamental absence of empathy on the part of the attacker: an inability to imagine, or connect with, the humanity and suffering of others

Have you read the Koran?

If Mr Hasan has spent a lifetime reading the koran and taking its ‘message’ to heart, then why should it surprise you he had a complete lack of empathy and a total inability to imagine or to connect with the pain and suffering of non-Muslims?

I’m going to buy everyone a Koran for Cheristmas.

On the other hand:

It’s worth remembering that nearly all mass terrorist acts in this country are committed by brown men. Do we have a brown-man problem on our hands?

And aren’t the British police also cautious about assigning an Islamist or Jihadist motive, precisely because of the risk to public order? Public order is, after all, a chief concern of police everywhere.

Conciliator is BHO!!!

Do I win something?

I am not sure if Conciliator is for real or is a parody. Certainly sounds like the latter.

>> The Scientologists must be having a field day telling everyone how evil and murder-prone psychiatrists are.

Wa-haha!

On the other hand:

It’s worth remembering that nearly all mass terrorist acts in this country are committed by brown men. Do we have a brown-man problem on our hands?

If you look at the history of mass terrorist attacks in this country, you’ll find that most of them were carried out by white men too.

Really? Which mass terrorist attacks are you thinking of?

Really? Which mass terrorist attacks are you thinking of?

Fortunately there haven’t been very many in our history. But we could start with Oklahoma City, the worst aside from 9/11.

According to US employment laws*, people of Middle Eastern origins are considered white, so most of the folks who committed all the terrorist atrocities in the Middle East, Europe and the USA, including 9/11 were white.

*Last I looked which was several years ago.

“It’s worth remembering that nearly all mass shootings in this country are committed by white men. Do we have a white-man problem on our hands?”

It’s worth remembering that all shootings in this country are the result of a Human firing a gun, do we have a Humans problem on our hands?

It’s also worth remembering that all car crashes are a result of a car crashing, do we have car problem on our hands?

It’s also worth remembering that all religious people believe in god, do we have a religious or people problem on our hands?

What is wrong with people these days, has Left wing political correctness made people so incapable of accepting reality that they will do almost anything to negate the facts, the guy is a fucking Islamic purist, he is a Muslim, got it, everyone knows he is a Muslim, everyone knows he is a believer in Islam, was he fighting what he believes is the Jihad, probably, was he following Islamic teaching, probably, did he murder these people for Islam, we will find out at his trial.

Islam is not a religion of peace, saying it is, wishing it was or pretending it will be, is not going to alter the facts, Islam is a supremacist, imperialistic violent ideology and if that is to difficult a reality to accept then I truly pity those who won’t accept it, because one day we will all have to accept it, wether we want to or not.

As Concililator quotes from a sneering ln line comment about President Obama from the Weekly Standard blog, he apparently is a parody and not the real PC boob.

I rather think conciliator is directly quoting BHO, which does indeed make him a pc boob.

Thanks Gene for the information about the Orlando shooter. Latest news is that the gunman Jason Rodriguez, 40, shot people at the engineering firm he had been layed off more than two years ago. There is at least one, possible two dead. Rodriguez surrendered to the Orlando police at his mother’s house three hours after the shooting. Read “Gunman caught after office shooting spree” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/national/main5551361.shtml?tag=cbsContent;cbsCarousel

Gene, thanks also for reminding us about Ayman Taha and Kareem Khan.

“Hmm. Can’t imagine what Major Malik Nadal Hasan’s motivation could have been”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100015948/hmm-cant-imagine-what-major-malik-nadal-hasans-motivation-could-have-been/

Dear All at HP. ObamaMessiah has said “‘Dont’ Jump to Conclusions’ on Fort Hood Shooting”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/06/obama-visit-walter-reed/

Therefore, any speculation that this was the accidental firing of weapons out of control in a freak accident by a soldier of white supremacist tendencies must be pushed to the back of our minds. ObamaMessiah has spoken!

Since I am not under ObamaMessiah control then I believe that he was an Islamist Jihadi who had decided to become a Shahid.

Did anyone see the pathetic Obama comment while attending a native American conference. Now you understand the meaning of teh word “gravitas” and why he isn’t fit for the job.

“Mehdi Hasan Exposed. Part 1 -Atheists and disbelievers are ‘cattle’ and ‘of no intelligence’”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/24/medhi-hasan-exposed-part-i-%E2%80%93-atheists-and-disbelievers-are-%E2%80%9Ccattle%E2%80%9D-and-%E2%80%9Cof-no-intelligence%E2%80%9D/

“Mehdi Hasan Part 2 -Muslims and non-Muslims”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/27/mehdi-hasan-part-ii-muslims-and-non-muslims/

One thing above all I have taken note of. The assassin was finally stopped by someone else with a gun. Tragically, thirteen of his victims are dead, and more are wounded. But if it hadn’t been for the hand on the trigger of that second gun, how many more would he have shot to death? Experience tells us that once a gunman starts, he doesn’t stop until someone stops him.

It is all very well making guns illegal, but all it does is ensure that the only people who have them, are the criminals, and the terrorists. And here in the UK, they know that the rest of us can’t shoot them back, and neither can the Police. Ducks in a barrel. Especially our schools and hospitals which are still horribly vulnerable, and complacent.

As for the motivation of this guy, it will surprise no-one if this is just another example of jihad. And this has no correlation with poverty or oppression. In fact, jihadists are much more likely to be relatively priviledged, have good qualifications and promising careers, nice homes, stable families. The few who do not fit this pattern tend to be converts, be they white or black, who are losers and lowlives. They find in islam a pretext for for the criminal acts they were always going to do anyway.

“Mehdi Hasan Part 3 : A new direction for the New Statesman?”

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/28/mehdi-hasan-part-iii-a-new-direction-for-the-new-statesman/

‘It is all very well making guns illegal, but all it does is ensure that the only people who have them, are the criminals, and the terrorists. And here in the UK, they know that the rest of us can’t shoot them back, and neither can the Police. Ducks in a barrel. Especially our schools and hospitals which are still horribly vulnerable, and complacent.’

Which is why there are spree killings every week in the UK presumably, while they are almost unknown in the USA.

The American version of the Islam of Louis Farakhan and Co

The vast majority of US Muslims have nothing to do with Farakhan.

The vast majority of UK Muslims had nothing to do with 7/7 but the number of Muslims convicted of terrorism-related offences in the UK since 2001 is between 250-270. As a percentage of terrorists versus percentage of population the Muslim score is worryingly high.

Cookie Cutter
“As a percentage of terrorists versus percentage of population the Muslim score is worryingly high.”

0.0125% is worryingly high ?

Cookie Cutter
“As a percentage of terrorists versus percentage of population the Muslim score is worryingly high.”

0.0125% is worryingly high ?

Tosser!

Muslims = 3% of the population

Muslims convicted of terrorism since 2001 as a percentage of all people convicted of terrorism in that period = (approx) 95%.

(as an aside, about 10% of the prison population is Muslim. You can verify that by regerence to The Prison Service documents)

I wonder what the far-right Harrys Place would feel about Neo-nazis using Jonathan Pollard or Bernie Madoff to demonise American Jews or question their patriotism?
But these cunts gladly do the same with American Muslims!

HP has accepted a post calling for concentration camps for American Muslims.

And as far as I can tell no-one agrees with such a reprehensible suggestion.

Give the self-selecting facts about the number of guilty verdicts on terrorism related offences undertaken by Muslims do you consider it reasonable, given finite security resources, that Muslims face greater scrutiny than Mr Estate Agent from Penge?

I recognise that this means targetting and profiling. Is this wrong given the facts?

We also recognise that the perpetrators of terrorism do change in flavour. We’ve had the IRA, Animal Rights, Wales for The Welsh, lone nutters. I absolutley sure that apart from “lone nutters” we scrutinise all these groups but the biggest threat doesn’t seem to be in that group at the moment.

Cookie Cutter

“Tosser!

Muslims = 3% of the population

Muslims convicted of terrorism since 2001 as a percentage of all people convicted of terrorism in that period = (approx) 95%.”

Wow so people arrested under a law intended with Muslims in mind ..tend to be Muslims

Given that for example far right terrorists arent even arrested under terrorism laws what do you expect ?

What exactly is your point other than to stir up hatred of Muslims? One might as well say “100% of those arrested for rape: men”
If someone produced a post saying Jews are disproprionately involved in xyz crime backed with statistics youd scream blue murder.
Yet you do the same hateful thing to Muslims!!

If you look at the history of mass terrorist attacks in this country, you’ll find that most of them were carried out by white men too.

Were they motivated by their skin melanin though, o feeble-minded one?

If you look at the history of mass terrorist attacks

Was the bombing of the King David Hotel a ‘mass terrorist act’, Gene?

Wow so people arrested under a law intended with Muslims in mind ..tend to be Muslims

AND WHY DO THE SECURITY FORCES CONCENTRATE ON MUSLIMS S AT THE MOMENT??!!!!!!

Doh!

I think you’ve now understood.

If someone produced a post saying Jews are disproprionately involved in xyz crime backed with statistics youd scream blue murder.

Well do it and we’ll see who screams. Go ahead! Don’t just make straw man arguments. I can tell you without looking that Jews in prison have tended to be there for financial offences rather than violence when you look at the total prison population of Jews. So what? You will also find that the number of Jews in prison versus their population in the UK is low. (based on the last time I ever checked this 5 years ago)

CookieCutter: Would you have been satisfied had Obama urged Americans to take vigilante action against anybody who looke like a terrorist? (i.e. from the Middle East)

Obama’s statement calls for calm, that is what is needed right now.

Concentration camps? Where did anyone suggest “concentration camps?”

The BBC must have spoiled its already dirty kegs when the name of the murderer was revealed.

The message was put out to all BBC employees straight away – EVERYONE MUST AVOID THE USE OF THE ‘M’* and ‘T’* WORDS.

Live long and keep exposing the truth.

*Muslim
*Terrorist

Was the bombing of the King David Hotel a ‘mass terrorist act’, Gene?

Actually, one can well argue that blowing-up KDH was NOT an act of terrorism. When one military attacks another military in its base then that is regarded as warfare. If you suicide bomb a crowd of people its terrorism. If you blow up the Brighton Hotel its terrorism.

If you blow up the Intelligence headquarters of you enemy, if you give a warning to evacuate and your target is the buildings and military records and not the people then I don’t think you can call it terrorism. Its becomes “blow up Hotel” but it was commandeered as British Military headquarters.

If the French Resistance blew up a hotel full of Nazis would that be terrorism?

If you ask did the people who blew up KDH undertake acts that were classically terrorist my answer would be that I believe they did.

If Hamas ONLY attacked IDF then they wouldn’t be terrorists.

Which is why there are spree killings every week in the UK presumably, while they are almost unknown in the USA.

What’s more he was a soldier, in an army base. He and everyone around him had a weapon and were trained to use it. How does this tell us anything about gun laws in wider society?

HP has accepted a post calling for concentration camps for American Muslims.

Not at all. The point being made is that of being aware of where the threat or next attack is going to come from and doing something positive about it and not wimping out because someones feeling may be hurt.

CookieCutter: Would you have been satisfied had Obama urged Americans to take vigilante action against anybody who looke like a terrorist? (i.e. from the Middle East)

Obama’s statement calls for calm, that is what is needed right now.

I endorse the call to calm. I do NOT endorse the call NOT to jump to conclusions.

A President is right to ask his people to be calm. He does NOT have a right to tell them how and what to think – especially someone like Obama who has no Presidential cred and someone who has broken many promises and who’s ratings for doing so have plummeted.

“Hmm. Can’t imagine what Major Malik Nadal Hasan’s motivation could have been”

Hmm, can’t imagine what James Delingpole’s motivation might have been to write such an article with such strong opinions based on so little actual evidence. Oh, hang on, yes I can – he’s a total and utter cunt.

&*&*&jjhjjhj
CookieCutter: Would you have been satisfied had Obama urged Americans to take vigilante action against anybody who looke like a terrorist? (i.e. from the Middle East)

Obama’s statement calls for calm, that is what is needed right now. KLKLKL

I endorse the call to calm. I do NOT endorse the call NOT to jump to conclusions.

A President is right to ask his people to be calm. He does NOT have a right to tell them how and what to think – especially someone like Obama who has no Presidential cred and someone who has broken many promises and who’s ratings for doing so have plummeted.

(random characters because of false duplicate detect

I want an invite to Morgoth’s dinner party.
Shall I bring a toad souffle for starters?

Seriously though – every religion and none has its nutcases. I would imagine that the US military will be conducting a full and thorough investigation, so all will be revealed in due course.

American muslims are generally American first
& muslim second. This wretch may well be a bog
standard American gun freak, & his family’s
reaction suggests that they are ashamed of him.

The kind of muslims who are colonizing parts
of Britain have families who always have a “but”
to justify their criminality.

The US does not encourage multiculturalism,
& so its muslims are “spiritual” rather than
islamist.

Incidentally, Andrew Adams needs to clean
up his vocabulary. If he disagrees with the
excellent James Dellingpole, explain why,
don’t call hm a c–t (cunt)

I do NOT endorse the call NOT to jump to conclusions.

Indeed – now is not the time for calm, reasoned debate, nor of waiting for evidence or examining the so-called facts. At this moment of confusion and sorrow, everyone must instantly lose their damn minds and start barking deranged accusations and half-baked theories at each other.

The last man among us left with unshat pants will truly be the least.

He and everyone around him had a weapon and were trained to use it.

That’s simply false.

The Fort Hood attack is the third instance this year in which American military personnel in the United States have been targeted by people reportedly opposed to U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, terrorism experts said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/06/AR2009110603182.html?hpid=topnews

CookieCutter: What plumenting ratings for Obama. Opinion Polls show him holding steady at 50%-to 58%, i.e. around the number 52.6% of the electorate that voted for him a year ago. President Obama remains far more popular than any other politician especially any Republican. The only way that plumenting ratings story makes sense if you take his 80% popularity at the time of his Innaguration as the base, which is silly since that such an unnaturally high rating that came down to Earth once Obama starting making decisions as any President has to.

Flying Rodent, 12:28 AM: I agree with what FR in this comment.
Hmm, perhaps I should check the weather forecast for Hell!

Andrew Adams
6 November 2009, 11:51 pm

Which is why there are spree killings every week in the UK presumably, while they are almost unknown in the USA.

What’s more he was a soldier, in an army base. He and everyone around him had a weapon and were trained to use it. How does this tell us anything about gun laws in wider society?
————–

So you reckon that servicemen, psychologically damaged and unbalanced, undergoing treatment at the psychiatric clinic are armed to the teeth while they are in there do you? Service personnel in the USA, France, Germany and the UK, are not routinely armed while on their home territory.

The one with the gun was a policewoman, and fortunately she had the guts to use it.

People who go on killing sprees with guns, have a track record of choosing target zones where they know no-one else has a gun.

And there is quite a lot of gun crime in the UK, and it is getting steadily worse.

Monty: American soldiers carry loaded weapons in combat and during live-fire training. They don’t wander around base with loaded M-16s and a couple a spare clips.

In other words, Andrew Adams is full of shit.

President Obama remains far more popular than any other politician especially any Republican.

And that’s why he’s rolling from one political triumph to the next.

Back from pub.

We need facts before fulminating.

We need someone to sort the time on these posts. It’s just past midnight, not past 1am.

I hadn’t noticed that KB, but you are right. There is something funny about the time stamps on this site.

This comment submitted at 00:33 hours on 07:11:09

So what have we got to go on here? Middle-aged guy, no sex life worth the name, pissed off in a job he hates, being forced by his bosses to do stuff he doesn’t want to do? Ladies and gents, this has “Man Goes Postal At Work” written all over it in nine-foot letters. I guess we’ll find out from the man himself soon enough, although I imagine plenty of people will have decided for themselves and moved onto some new daftness by then.

I think I’m with Flying Rodent on this one. Either this was a terrorist attack following a conspiracy and committed with assistance from 3rd parties, or it’s the work of a lone psycho.

I couldn’y give a rat’s ass whether Hasan shouted “Allahu Akbar!” or “Aloha from Hawaii” before opening fire. What he’s done is completely irrational so whay has anything he might have said suddenly assumed relevance? 13 is exactly the number killed by another lone psycho in late-70s/early-80s Britain. Peter Suttcliffe, the Yourkshire Ripper, claimed he was motivated by the voice of God rattling around his skull instructing him to clear the streets of whores. People at the time did not hear this and give each other knowing glances as if to say “it’s that bloody deity speaking to his flock that’s caused this.” Rather, we all agreed Suttcliffe was a bit of a heed the baw and demanded that he be kept away from pointy things for the rest of his puff.

Again, assuming this wasn’t terrorism as the term is commonly understood, I see no reason to why Hasan should be treated differently.

Either this was a terrorist attack following a conspiracy and committed with assistance from 3rd parties, or it’s the work of a lone psycho.
Could it not be the work of a lone terrorist? If Timothy McVeigh acted alone, he would have been no less a terrorist, no?

Again, assuming this wasn’t terrorism as the term is commonly understood, I see no reason to why Hasan should be treated differently.

But here’s what we’ve got so far, according to eyewitnesses, colleagues, and friends. He considered the war on terror a “war on Islam” and himself a Muslim first and an American second; he thought Muslims had the right to stand up to the “aggressor” in the Middle East and is suspected of posting things online about the selfless heroism of jihadist suicide bombers; he was placed on probation for proselytizing about Islam to patients and colleagues and was sufficiently devout that he refused to have his picture taken with women; he once used a lecture at a medical conference as an opportunity to discuss how the Koran orders decapitation for infidels; and, oh yes, he yelled “Allahu Akbar” before opening fire.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/06/chris-matthews-we-may-never-know-if-religion-was-a-factor-at-fort-hood/

Peter Suttcliffe, the Yourkshire Ripper, claimed he was motivated by the voice of God rattling around his skull instructing him to clear the streets of whores. People at the time did not hear this and give each other knowing glances as if to say “it’s that bloody deity speaking to his flock that’s caused this.” Rather, we all agreed Suttcliffe was a bit of a heed the baw and demanded that he be kept away from pointy things for the rest of his puff.

Hmmm, I don’t think the analogy quite squares. Suttcliffe was proper crazy, over many years, and had an obsession with raping and killing women. However this guy seems to have had an very strong ideological beef with America’s war on Muslims, as he saw it, and appeared to justify suicide bombings. It’s a different scenario to some crazy rapist.

I agree it’s not a straightfoward terror attack, and the style of attack he chose was very American in style. There maybe other factors too.

I don’t see why Flying Rodent’s call to hold fire on speculation has met with such a response. This incident seems to fit very well with all manner of preconceived ideas people have and the responses could have been predicted the moment the incident happened.

Exhibit A: The gun lobbyist claim

One thing above all I have taken note of. The assassin was finally stopped by someone else with a gun. Tragically, thirteen of his victims are dead, and more are wounded. But if it hadn’t been for the hand on the trigger of that second gun, how many more would he have shot to death? Experience tells us that once a gunman starts, he doesn’t stop until someone stops him.

It is all very well making guns illegal, but all it does is ensure that the only people who have them, are the criminals, and the terrorists.

Any mass shooting with the shooter being shot in return will get this response despite the fact that the shooter was himself a soldier and therefore would presumably have had access to the gun no matter what the laws are regarding society in general. The person who shot him also would presumably have access to a gun no matter what the laws were (unless we posit a ludicrous law that forbids military personnel to have access to weapons).

Exhibit B:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/everything-about-nidal-malik-hasan-screams-patsy.html

The Empire strikes back – right when when public support for the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan sinks to all time lows, an anti-war Islamic extremist with links to suicide bombers goes on a shooting rampage at a U.S. army base, reinvigorating support for the war on terror and demonizing opposition to it as anti-American extremism. The scam would be believable if it wasn’t so perfectly staged.

This kind of theory would happen no matter what. If there’s evidence the guy is unhinged it is too convenient to be believed. If there isn’t then clearly we shouldn’t believe it. Anyway, the government did it.

As for him shouting “allah uh akbar!” and wearing Muslim-y looking clothes, this may all be so. But the shooting wouldn’t really signify much unless he was part of an organization that put him up to it. If there is no evidence for him being part of an organization then maybe it really is a run-of-the-mill “rage shooting”. We don’t know yet.

This case doesn’t tell us much, though, so admittedly it does feel different. There can’t be that many Muslims in this bizarre situation where they are in the army but apparently hate everything it is doing in the world and would one day flip out in this way. It’s highly likely he’s just a loan nut. So there is not a lot to be learnt from it in general. It’s not like the cases in the UK that are about denial in whole communities, that entail brainwashing, indoctrination and a vast array of links to Pakistan and terror networks. It seems very different.

Oh, come off it, Brownie. The question of whether “terrorism” must involve conspiracy is dull, and a red herring. David Copeland apparently acted alone, but no one has tried to argue that neo-Nazi ideology was irrelevant to the mass murders he committed.

If he did shout “Allahu Akbar”, it is very pertinent to ascertaining his motivation, and as reports claim he did, I don’t think it unreasonable to speculate on it.

I agree that, as Rodent has speculated (despite chastising everyone for doing so), a lack of sex and frustration in the workplace were likely contributing factors, but most people in that situation don’t commit mass murder. To the unloved and undersexed, political and religious extremism can provide solace, and the necessary framework to justify such acts. Even if this was a solitary act, you can be sure that if he did shout “Allahu-Akbar”, a trail of e-mails to the like-minded will turn up in due course.

If he did act alone, there may be some taxonomical significance to it, but to discount “Allahu-Akbar” as being of no more relevance than shouting “Aloha Hawaii” is just silly. No one ever committed mass murder shouting “Aloha Hawaii”.

“Hasan likely ‘Lone Wolf,’ Officials Say” at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/national/main5553174.shtml

This was undeniably a terrorist attack of a single individual, but motivated by violent, extremist belief, much like the racist gunman who murdered a guard at the Holocaust Museum back in June. These type of attacks are called Lone Wolf attacks and have been a favorite of the neo-Nazis & KKK in America for more than 30 years as a form of terror meant to overcome the success of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in infilitrating the ranks of extremists groups. The model for lone wolf attacks among neo-Nazis & Klansman is Joseph Paul Franklin a lone sniper who murdered 20 people, mostly interracial couples between 1977 and 1980. He also wounded civil rights leader, Vernon Jordan in 1980. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Paul_Franklin

I suppose a lone terrorist or a two-three person terrorist team can be considered a very American type, but it is a lot harder to prevent and guard against as both the Oklahoma City bombing and the beltway sniper attack so tragically prove.

No one ever committed mass murder shouting “Aloha Hawaii”.

The Japanese pilots over Pearl Harbor?

It’s a bit of a worry that this overt nutcase has spent years counseling wounded and traumatised soldiers, with no-one stopping to wonder if a guy who makes internet posts defending suicide bombings is the right guy to be leading other soldiers back to mental health.

Just maybe, the Fort Hood command structure hasn’t been taking psychological treatment of mentally and physically damaged soldiers very seriously. And just maybe, that’s connected to Fort Hood’s unusually high rate of suicides. I’m not saying that Hasan’s patients are especially at risk, though that may be so, only that a system that kept Hasan employed as a psychiatrist hasn’t exactly been committed to quality care.

BTW, as a jihadist (I don’t think you only count as a jihadist if you’re sane), when he wakes up he may be a little annoyed to reflect that he was brought down by a woman. Officer Kim Munley returned fire after he’d shot her, wounding him enough to allow him to be stopped. In jihadist terms I dare say that’s one deeply unclean bullet.

“but let’s be very very very careful about what we say…”

Compare the restrained tone of this thread concerning Nidal Malik Hasan with the outpouring of vengeful sadistic comment and calls for violent retribution when the Yaacov Teitel story broke a few days ago.

Any ideas as to why HP commenters treat the two so differently?

Compare the restrained tone of this thread concerning Nidal Malik Hasan with the outpouring of vengeful sadistic comment and calls for violent retribution when the Yaacov Teitel story broke a few days ago.

Never heard of him.

Perhaps a closer example would be the shootings by Baruch Goldstein in that they both acted by themselves – as far as we can tell, both were soldiers and doctors and both had personally held extreme views.

In both cases there are arguments over whether they can be classed as “terrorists” or “nutters”.

Mullah: “Any mass shooting with the shooter being shot in return will get this response ['The assassin was finally stopped by someone else with a gun. ... if it hadn’t been for the hand on the trigger of that second gun, how many more would he have shot to death?']despite the fact that the shooter was himself a soldier and therefore would presumably have had access to the gun no matter what the laws are regarding society in general. The person who shot him also would presumably have access to a gun no matter what the laws were (unless we posit a ludicrous law that forbids military personnel to have access to weapons).”

The shooter is a physician. He may have had some weapons training during officers’ basic, but he most certainly would not have had access to weapons by virtue of being in the Army. Nor would anyone else on that post, other than guards and MPs; and in this instance, civilian police responding to the incident. And “… a ludicrous law that forbids military personnel to have access to weapons” is just the law that actually is enforced on any military base, at least in the US. Weapons are very tightly controlled in those environments.

He brought his two handguns in from off-post. In terms of killer-logistics, this was pretty much like Columbine or the Virginia Tech shootings.

And, as far as the “lone nutter” versus “motivated Muslim” debate goes: not mutually exclusive. There’s reason to suppose that highly disturbed people may find religious beliefs either inhibitory or encouraging to any sort of behavior at all.

“Shooting raises fears for sanity of entire Western World ”

(Mark Steyn).

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjlhMTk3YjhiMWNiNTE0OTBmOTc1ZjQ4MzM0MjFlMWQ=

Amazing that there are people who consider themselves far left, cutting this guy such slack, talking about the ’stresses’ of being in the army, and racism towards non-white people. I don’t remember such tolerance being shown towards teh white prison guards at Abu Ghraid or the Jenin Massacre soldiers or at Fallujah. Is that not inconsistent?

This major used his own personal weapons, one of which from what I understand, was a sub-machine gun. Why would anywone possess such a weapon? Are they used for hunting or sports shooting?

At the end of the day, this is about betrayal. The one place in the world where you shoudlbe able to rely on your workmates is in teh Army, you life is in their hands quite literally. It is a complete denial of that code of honour. This man had no honour, and I’m glad a woman’s bullet felled him. We recently saw five British doldiers turned on by a ‘rogue’ Afghani policeman, I know the same think happened last month with an Afghani army unit shooting up an American patrol despite the fact they were meant to be patrolling jointly, eight soldiers were killed in that case. What are we achieving out there? Corruption and lack of will to develop is so entrenched I think we are wasting our time. We should be spending our money on schools and hospitals in this country not propping up barbaric, medieval regimes.

“He obviously didn’t want to go,” said Duane Reasoner, 18, who looked up to Hasan as a sort of religious mentor. “He said he shouldn’t be going to Iraq, and Muslims shouldn’t be in the military — it was an obvious conflict of interest. Muslims shouldn’t be killing Muslims. He told me not to join the military.”

Reasoner said he wouldn’t condemn Hasan after the shooting spree.

“I don’t know his intentions,” Reasoner told FoxNews.com. “I don’t know what he was thinking. I won’t condemn another Muslim.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572827,00.html

I guess its just another “disgruntled employee” killing. Nah! They happen every week in the USA. Nothing to see here!

(apparently he was on the FBI radar six months ago. So what happened?)

@SueR,

Amazing that there are people who consider themselves far left, cutting this guy such slack, talking about the ’stresses’ of being in the army, and racism towards non-white people. I don’t remember such tolerance being shown towards teh white prison guards at Abu Ghraid or the Jenin Massacre soldiers or at Fallujah. Is that not inconsistent?

Perhaps your memory isn’t what it was. The schema for the right-wing defence of Abu Ghraib was to claim (more or less openly) that it didn’t count because the perpetrators were white trash. The Mail, as ever, led from the front. The left, by contrast, was surprisingly good about calling out the classism of the scapegoat strategy — Gary Younge’s piece will stand in nicely.

Emmanuelgoldstein: I was thinking of such inconsequentalities as Fake Lenin. Can’t imagine for one moment that he excused the perpentrators of the above injustices. (Love the Two Minute hate, by the way.).

Can this lad really be called ‘Duane reasoner’? Reason by name, reason by nature?

I won’t condemn another Muslim.”

Hopefully an isolated case.

Sue R.

I must point out that there
was no “Jenin massacre”

Only Gilad Atzmon is stuck with its existence,
since he gets royalties from a dirge he wrote
to commemorate the invisible “victims”.

During our war against nazism, hospitals & schools
were seen as important, but not alternative to
survival.

Closing certain religious schools, private & state
funded, is called for, & as for hospitals, many NHS
hospitals are run by & for foreigners.

Remember Dr Arian, sacked from an NHS trust
in Lincolnshire (of all places), when the foreigners
who controlled it discovered he was a Christian.

Unfortunately not, Cookie Cutter. This deeply twisted loyalty to a co-religionist no matter what is deeply ingrained in Islamist interpretations of Islam.

It has given cover, for example, for known Islamist genocidaires of the Bangladesh Genocide, to work freely in the UK for years supported by mosque committees and others on the basis that one simply must not criticise a “fellow” Muslim.

It is a major problem and one that should be addressed, principally by the Muslim community itself.

It is a major problem and one that should be addressed, principally by the Muslim community itself.

They stick together! Just like the Jews, Greeks, Italians, Brits, Irish, Sikhs,………………..

Hopefully, you get my point that ALL groups tend to stick together and are loyal. The point that one might make is that there will (surely!) be people in those communities and groups who abhor the idea of a fellow planning violence.

I am 1m per cent sure that any Jew hearing that another Jew was planning to kill people would go to the police straight away. Surely most communities would do something similar because such an action stains that community.

But why do I get the impression that certain parts of the Muslim Community are willing to turn a blind eye to what they may see, hera or just get suspicious about? Why do I get the impression that while terrorism isn’t condoned maybe a few in teh community are glad at the action? We know about people who whopped at 9/11 and we can see blog comments that have praised the actions of terrorists. Such people exist, I have no doubt.

At the end of the day this is about a close reading of the Koran and doing what it say you should do.

The point that one might make is that there will (surely!) be people in those communities and groups who abhor the idea of a fellow planning violence.

I agree completely with this.

“At the end of the day this is about a close reading of the Koran and doing what it say you should do.”

This presumably is backed up by FlyingRodent’s comment at 5.43? Or have you not bothered to think about it?

HPextemists is a classic example of a politically naive
imbecile.

He hates the freedoms that the Western world gives
to anyone who wishes to embrace them.

So, our enemies are his friends.
Even if they are incontrovertibly to the “Right”
of Hitler.
HPe doesn’t mind, he’s happy to live in, & derive benefits
from, a country which allows him to support its enemies.

Try that game in Saudi or Iran matey boy !

Lawrence Auster points to the ‘liberal’ political mentality in all this, and the consequent use of passive language:

” The Massacre”

http://amnation.com/vfr/#014684

SueR good point re tolerance of minority US military vis a vis inclinations of some Isaeli military.
Jack R surely the point of being liberal is that one respectfully does not accept one’s religous baggage as the supreme truth anymore.

Hugh:

“Jack R surely the point of being liberal is that one respectfully does not accept one’s religous baggage as the supreme truth anymore.”

Not sure about that. Most religions proclaim their supremacy over all others. It is when a religion invests it’s followers with a degree of supremacy over other people that illiberal and authoritarian behaviour emerges, and an ordinary man who fears death, will kill his fellow man to win his place in heaven.

Interesting observations Lucy in your article above about this shooter…and thanks for the recommendation – the New Statesman article by Mehdi Hasan where he argues that there is nothing Islamic or justifiable about suicide bombings and condemns them, is indeed excellent as you say.
Its just a shame that the extreme fanatics and terrorists on both side of the Atlantic are too busy propogating their own cruel and misguided agenda to read it or comprehend that their actions are anything but for their ‘Allah’.

they should throw the book at the shooter!
a killer is a killer, a nutter is a nutter whatever he may have said as he went on his spree
singers on mtv may all ‘thank the lord’ as they receive their awards, but it does not make them practicing christians…
neither does this nidal guy muttering from the koran or whatever mean that he was a practicing moslem or represent the millions of regular law abiding moslems out there…its early days so hard to know for sure, but this seems to be just another sad shooting by a disturbed individual like virginia tech

So, do we have any further reasons to believe this was some insane Jihadist attack, rather than some insane lone nutter gunman attack in the grand American tradition?

Texas army killer linked to September 11 terrorists

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6521758/Fort-Hood-shooting-Texas-army-killer-linked-to-September-11-terrorists.html

So, do we have any further reasons to believe this was some insane Jihadist attack, rather than some insane lone nutter gunman attack in the grand American tradition?

Why can he only be influenced by one tradition? I think it was a jihadist attack in an American style. If he really did it because of the situation in Afghanistan, he only took this extreme stance because he feels an Islamist connection to the Taliban. That is the motivation. How the attack was done, however, was in the classic postal American style.

lizzie trott:
“neither does this nidal guy muttering from the koran or whatever mean that he was a practicing moslem”.

Except mountains of evidence indicate, that he was in fact a
practicing muslim.
Don´t you read the papers?

I see the BBC on their ten o’clock news report decided the main focus of this story should not be the 13 victims – of which we were told nothing except that they were “men and women” – but about the potential effect on Muslims in the US army.

I’m sorry, but Mr Obama and his family are spending the weekend at Camp David, while Mr Bush and his wife were visiting the wounded in hospital. Doesn’t a Commander in Chief do that sort of thing? The pathetic excuses being made remind me the Boomtime Rats, ‘I don’t like Mondays’, about a girl who hated going to school on Mondays and shot dead her classmates. Perhaps it should be recorded as ‘I don’t like the USA Army, when it is killing Muslims’?

Brownie – It may indeed be ours, but Britain’s largest county is not ‘Yourkshire’!

Contrary to the ‘New Statesman’ on Islamic suicide attacks:

1.) “Islamikaze: Manifestations of Islamic martyrdom”

(by Raphael Israeli)

http://www.amazon.com/Islamikaze-Manifestations-Martyrology-Raphael-Israeli/dp/0714683914

2.) “Suicide Bombing as Worship: Dimensions of Jihad”

(by Denis MacEoin)

http://www.meforum.org/2478/suicide-bombing-as-worship

“He obviously didn’t want to go,” said Duane Reasoner, 18, who looked up to Hasan as a sort of religious mentor. “He said he shouldn’t be going to Iraq, and Muslims shouldn’t be in the military — it was an obvious conflict of interest. Muslims shouldn’t be killing Muslims. He told me not to join the military.”

Reasoner said he wouldn’t condemn Hasan after the shooting spree.

“I don’t know his intentions,” Reasoner told FoxNews.com. “I don’t know what he was thinking. I won’t condemn another Muslim.”

There we can see proven the utter poison which is the Islamic injunction against ever siding with the unbelievers.

Duane, who’s only excuse is that he’s pretty young, was a complete moron to tell a reporter that he would not condemn the murder of 13 completely innocent people in his town and wounding of dozens of others.

Duane will be lucky if one of his neighbors doesn’t kill him once they all know what he said. And that’s my point. The attitude he was taught in his mosque is so poisonous that it invites violence, creates hatred and frankly if he wasn’t young and stupid, he’d deserve any punishment he got for subscribing to it.

@thomask:
thanks but i do read all the papers! my point was that just because these fanatics (like al qaeda and the taliban) are seen to be going through the motions like praying or wearing arab clothes etc does not mean the majority of the rest of the moslem world see them as moslems – my friends don’t , they say they seem simply as killers as they say no real moslem would take an innocent person’s life.

I’m sorry, but Mr Obama and his family are spending the weekend at Camp David, while Mr Bush and his wife were visiting the wounded in hospital. Doesn’t a Commander in Chief do that sort of thing?

Obama and his wife will travel to Fort on Tuesday to attend a memorial service to honor the shooting victims.

lizzie trott, you are moving the goalposts.
From “practicing” to “real” muslim.

“Staying silent and denying the Alluha Akbar obvious for the sake of pee cee sensibilities will only lead to an American BNP.”

Yeah, I always said that Independence was PC – return the colonies to British rule and sell off the rest to Mexico.

my point was that just because these fanatics (like al qaeda and the taliban) are seen to be going through the motions like praying or wearing arab clothes etc does not mean the majority of the rest of the moslem world see them as moslems – my friends don’t , they say they seem simply as killers as they say no real moslem would take an innocent person’s life.

Ah the “No true Scotsman” fallacy! The classic argument for all those who want to avoid their own race or belief system’s responsibilities. I wondered when that one would make an appearance. Welcome home, old friend!

Jack R –
Lucy Lips probably highlighted the merit of the New Statesman article by Mehdi Hasan, in which he says there is ‘nothing Islamic about so-called Islamic terrorism’, because it quoted a respected Muslim sheikh who teaches theology at Oxford University.
This scholar with legal expertise provides step by step arguments as to why there is no moral justification or religious justification for suicide attacks, whatever some Muslims may claim, including:
‘Suicide is prohibited in Islam. The Quran declares, in no uncertain terms: “Do not kill yourselves”. Al-Akiti refers to suicide as a “cursed sin”. The power of this moral and Islamic opprobrium, directed at a potential suicide bomber, cannot be understated.’

You on the other hand Jack sadly chose not to quote from theologians or respected experts, but instead quote a man whose writings have apparently been questioned by BBC Newsnight and who writes for an American think tank run by a Mr Ruben who says their mission is to propogate American interests in the Middle East?

I am not sure what your point is exactly Jack, but at a time when such abominable terrorist attacks are becoming all too common on our shores, should we not be commending those from the Muslim community who are speaking out against them and crystallising the glaring differences between the radical ignorant few and the silent Muslim majority?

Especially since the NS article states that:
‘Several ex-members of the extremist group al-Muhajiroun have contacted al-Akiti to thank him for providing them with the theological armour with which to resist radicalisation.’

Yes, I strongly believe that more Muslims should take on the responsibility of speaking out unequivocally against terrorism and extremism like Mehdi Hasan and Al-Akiti have done so well, but in the meantime tarring an entire community or faith with one ‘brush’ may serve only to increase the number of sympathisers to the terrorists…something which will not help make our shores safer.

I just noticed, that this post is being flagged under the keyword:
“anti muslim bigotry”. So this is, what this whole thing is about?
Major Hasan seems to agree:

Nov. 7 (Bloomberg) — Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused of a shooting spree that killed 13 people at the Fort Hood Army Base in Texas, called the war on terrorism “a war against Islam,” said a doctor who was in a graduate program with him.
While studying for a masters degree in public health in 2007, Hasan used a presentation for an environmental health class to argue that Muslims were being targeted by the U.S. anti-terror campaign, said Val Finnell, a classmate.
“He was very vocal about the war, very upfront about being a Muslim first and an American second,” said Finnell, 41, a preventive medicine doctor in Los Angeles, in an interview yesterday. “He was always concerned that Muslims in the military were being persecuted.”

Major Hasan and Harry´s Place seem to be on the same page
about this.

Or maybe I should ask: Is “Anti Muslim Bigotry” the root cause
of Nidal Malik Hasan´s act, according to HP orthodoxy?

Oh, come off it, Brownie. The question of whether “terrorism” must involve conspiracy is dull, and a red herring. David Copeland apparently acted alone, but no one has tried to argue that neo-Nazi ideology was irrelevant to the mass murders he committed.

There’s a few things here. First, I never said terrorism “must” involve conspiracy, but conspiracy is very often a component in those acts where there is little controversy about ascription of the term “terrorism”. The lone actor scenario does not preclude terrorism, but my point is that the Hasan atrocity – thus far – would seem to fail the terrorism test in analysis of both the sum and its parts.

If he did shout “Allahu Akbar”, it is very pertinent to ascertaining his motivation, and as reports claim he did, I don’t think it unreasonable to speculate on it.

I think you’ve misunderstood my point. I’m making no claim about motivation except to say that just because someone says “I did X because of Y” it doesn’t necessarily mean we should automatically attribute significance to “Y”. Brenda Ann Spencer said that she shot up a school because she didn’t like Mondays. Nobody found this particularly illuminating and/or demanded something be done about changing the designated start of the working week. The claimed motivation was considered instructive only for purposes of demonstrating Miss Spencer’s lift didn’t go to the top floor. Hasan allegedly shouts “Allahu Akbar”: in some circumstance, this would indeed be relevant; in others, it might be worthy of a big fat “so what?”. If the guy’s a sociopath, then why should anyone other than those who study these looney-tunes give two-seconds thought to what he says?

If he did act alone, there may be some taxonomical significance to it, but to discount “Allahu-Akbar” as being of no more relevance than shouting “Aloha Hawaii” is just silly. No one ever committed mass murder shouting “Aloha Hawaii”.

I think you’ve got this back-to-front. Firstly, lots of mental cases down the years have claimed all sorts of irrational and completely nonsensical motivations for their acts (see Brenda Ann Spencer above). What you appear to be doing here is taking an example where the mass-murderer shouts something that is of a type with the sorts of exclamations made by those whom we’d agree are unarguably responsible for terrorist acts and extrapolating from there. If there’s nothing else about the planning (or lack thereof) and commission of the atrocity that suggests terrorism, then things are not flipped on their head because of whatever it was the nutbar agent happened to say when s/he pulled the trigger.

I understand that for some on this thread the fact the guy is a Muslim and he said what he said seals the deal, but it’s possible to follow Islam and still just be a whacko rather than a jihadi.

I just noticed, that this post is being flagged under the keyword:“anti muslim bigotry”. So this is, what this whole thing is about?

Not is. Has to be. Facts are irrelevant; the politically correct viewpoint is everything.

According to David T et al, there is no such thing as criticism of Islam, or holding Islamic doctrine responsible for horrific acts. It’s all anti-Muslim bigotry–

Oops, make that: it all has to be anti-Muslim bigotry. Otherwise Labour can’t win the elections.

thomask and qidniz,

Can either of you actually read? The post is in the category “Anti-Muslim bigotry, Islamism” and the content of the post itself is full of questions about the circumstnaces of the atrocity, the answers to which will help determine how best to categorise it: terrorism or just the handiwork of a nutcase.

Facts are irrelevant

You said it, pal.

So, do we have any further reasons to believe this was some insane Jihadist attack, rather than some insane lone nutter gunman attack in the grand American tradition?

No we don’t, but that isn’t going to stop them.

If this had happened in the UK, it would almost certainly be a islamist terrorist attack, and you’d expect the release of a martyrdom video.

Since this happened in the US, where there are loads of similar shoot ups from disgruntled ex-exmployees and pissed off teenagers, we need more info before coming to any conclusion.

So, do we have any further reasons to believe this was some insane Jihadist attack, rather than some insane lone nutter gunman attack in the grand American tradition?

Please explain why a lone nutter gunman can’t be a jihadist.

Can either of you actually read?

Yes. The category missing, as it always is here in Leftistan, is “Islam”.

Leftistan

As an Inbetweener might say:

“Brilliant!”

“He obviously didn’t want to go,” said Duane Reasoner, 18, who looked up to Hasan as a sort of religious mentor.”

This from the Maryland Mosque where they said he was a good guy

“So many times I talked with him,” said Akhter, a community leader who is sort of like a mosque gadfly, challenging congregants to reject literal, rigid interpretations of Islam. “I was trying to modernize him. I tried my best. He used to hate America as a whole. He was more anti-American than American.”

Despite all the conversations, Akther said, “I couldn’t get through to him. He was a typical fundamentalist Muslim.”

“If this had happened in the UK, it would almost certainly be a islamist terrorist attack, and you’d expect the release of a martyrdom video.”

I thought that in the UK you too subscribed to theory that any attack of this nature by a Muslim fundementalist was an anti-Islamic attack .

Davod – who’s the “you” in that sentence? Everyone in the UK? I don’t really understand what you’re getting at.

“Brilliant!”

And Lefti is a deeply offensive slur.

“Davod – who’s the “you” in that sentence? Everyone in the UK? I don’t really understand what you’re getting at.”

Sorry. The UK and US governments had, for a while accepted the theory espoused by some Muslim groups that the radical Muslim terrorists were acting outside of their interpretation of Islam. Therefore terrorist attacks by radical Islamists against non-Muslim civillians were anti-Islamist attacks.

Yes. I know it sounds ridiculous but it makes perfect sense if you want to get the rest of Islam off the hook (You know, the real Muslims).

‘terrorist attacks against non muslim civilians’?
um, have you forgotten the youngest victim of the 7/7 attacks was a teenage moslem girl?
that many moslems were in the towers died in 9/11
maybe THAT’S why the real moslems want to distance themselves from the terrorists, because their horrendous actions are nothing to do with the true islam the majority follow and the fact that these terrorists are willing to kill indiscriminately people of any faith, including islam, shows their motive is simply murder and nothing to do with religion