Harry's Place

Fair enough

Good article! The creep of theocracy must be resisted everywhere and anyone who advocates laws- civil or criminal- based on ancient superstitions is an enemy of freedom.

There is another aspect to the shabbat enforced store closing; It has to do with length of work week. If you own a small family business (like a grocery or hardware store), you will be forced to keep your doors open if there is no enforced day off. It would pressure you to work a 7 day week. The large companies can rotate employees. If you liked to take Shabbat off, you would simply be losing business.

In Israel, there is a secular side to Shabbat as well. It is a relaxed day, where you can visit family (and know that they will be off), or just hang out with friends. The country takes a deep breath from its usual stressful ways. I am not religious, but I love Shabbat in Israel. It would be a shame to lose this kind of weekly event.

As for marriages (in my never humble opinion), a state should only recognize civil unions between people (be it gay, straight, interracial, etc. etc). The religious side should be completely separate and not have any kind of relationship to the government. This goes for Israel, the U.S., Canada or any other country.

Stan

How can the country that produced “20 %” of Nobel Prize winners be involved with spitting rituals that we thought was only practiced by Amazonian tribes?

Israel is SO under the thumb of Judaism and Religious observance that there are no cars, trains or buses running on the Sabbath. No TV or radio. They shut the Internet down.

No, wait……

What are your plans for 25 December? Renew your drivers license?

Yes – when the Israelis have the time and space to do so – they will have to deal with all this. It took eg. the UK an awfully long time to secularise Sundays and Bishops still sit in the House of Lords – this too will pass.

USDAW, the shopworkers’ union, fought Sunday trading on the grounds that they knew – quite accurately – that it would sooner or later mean that workers would be obliged to work Sundays.

As it has, of course.

Like Stan says, this then means pressure on smaller shops to be open all the hours The Great Spirit sends.

Heh like how you sneaked this in on a Saturday.
If the majority of people on a bus want it segregated, it should still be illegal to have a segregated bus.
It’s a paradox of democracy, what’s the answer though, A political elite deciding what’s best against the wishes of the citizens? That’s problematic too.

If you want to live in Canada so badly, stay there.. there are many secular states but only one Jewish one.

Tough. If you don’t like this, then why not return to Canada where you can have your cake and eat it (literally)? Israel is the only Jewish state. Far from saying that there’s no transport on Shabbat, it’s a lie. You can always get a taxi everywhere. There’s also sheruts. No doubt you have a car. Take it to Herzlia (all of about, what, three miles away?) and you can get whatever you need. All the malls are open. All the cafes. I’d hardly call Ra’anana Bnei B’raq. What rubbish!

In Ireland today every teacher, doctor, nurse, social worker etc has to take special precautions to avoid being falsely accused of child abuse. This situation started in the early 1990s with hysterical attacks on the Catholic Church that then metamorphised into a hysteria that now affects the whole of Irish society. In one case in 1996 Patsy McGlinchey, a teacher of special needs children was accused of child abuse by 41 children, other children accused dozens of teachers also. Both he and his solicitor (who was also accused) were assaulted in the courtroom by hysterical parents.

This particular outbreak (and there were several others) started after the broadcast – in February 1996 – of an anti-clerical documentary called “Dear Daughter” by our national broadcaster RTE. HP viewers may be aware of this vile piece of work as it frequently figures in the Letters pages of ButterfliesandWheels.com. (See references to Goldenbridge Industrial School and Sister Xavieria of the Sisters of Mercy).

Patsy McGlinchey was acquitted in 2002 but denied his job back. Earlier this year he won a case in the High Court which obliges the school authorities to carry out an independent investigation with a view to re-employing him. (They just wanted him to take compensation and do a disappearing act.) It took him 13 years to get to that point.

I have concentated on one case but you can Google several others -the cases of Nora Wall and Paul (Pablo) McCabe, of Michael Fechin Hannon, of Michael Fitzpatrick – all were accused within one year of the broadcast of “Dear Daughter”. The Nora Wall case is in Wikipedia – she had been a nun but her co-accused Pablo McCabe, was a homeless man who became a target because it seemed more plausible to have a male as the main “rapist”.

Mirax writes about “the creep of theocracy”. There was no equivalent to this lunacy at a time when the Catholic Church was powerful in Ireland. We didn’t convict Jews or Protestants on the basis of mob hysteria as Wall and McCabe were convicted. This is secular – and specifically anti-clerical – hysteria.

The arguments against Saturday opening are very similar to those advanced by the Keep Sunday Special campaign, in the 1980s in the UK.

Sabbatarianism used to be quite common in Europe – it is still pretty much impossible to find a major shop (as opposed to a family business) open in France.

Why don’t you go to Tiv Ta’am in Ra’anana?

Why don’t you mention that in neighbouring Herzliya there are two malls where the stores are open on Saturday – Shivat Ha’Kokhavim and Arena?

Why don’t you ask the question whether the majority of residents (mainly secular) on and near Ahuza St in Ra’anana want the stores open on Saturday along with the accompanying noise and traffic or whether they prefer quiet on their day off?

Actually, Gabriel, you are mistaken about the religious nature of Raanana. I find it to be dominated by the religious. I live in a Tel Aviv suburb and there is a Tiv Ta’am supermarket – open 24 hours of the day every day including Shabbat – within three blocks of me. There are kiosks and restaurants open on Friday nights and Saturdays within walking distance.

The only time I agreed with Lieberman was when he proposed civil marriage. We are much too dependent on the good offices of the Rabbinut in all sorts of fields.

The mechanism to ensure the basic rights of the minority is in place: the religious are the minority in Israel I am sure. Look at the number of cars driving on a Saturday. Attempt to return home at peak hour from the north and you will waste hours. When we have settled our problems with our neighbours and when this issue has ceased to dictate the way people vote we will be able to tackle the important interior issues.

I have rarely read this much non sense and half truths.

Tel Aviv is virtually packed with 24-hour shops that are open over shabbat, and there are plenty of taxis wherever you go.

I guess poor little Gabriel is just suffering from homesicknes, my advice is go back to Canada then – a country which in terms of adding to world culture and influence, certainly surpasses primitive little ol’ Israel..your mommy will be so happy

>> How can the country that produced “20 %” of Nobel Prize winners be involved with spitting rituals that we thought was only practiced by Amazonian tribes?

That ain’t so much a whatabout as a wh-a-a-a-a-a-a-t?

There is no such thing as an emergency pack of cigarettes.

Stan’s point most definitely rings true in terms of small businesses. Certainly in retail, closing one day a week may lead customers to try another similar outlet and stick with it.

Equally, there is some pressure on employees to fit their week into their employers business. Working in a 7-day-a-week type environment, you may find your day off quite variable and not necessarily in keeping with the rest of your family. At least with a defined day per week you can be sure of a day off with the rest of your family and friends.

To be perfectly honest, Gabriel, if you know full well that everthing closes on Saturday, isn’t it your responsibility to make sure your personal organisation is adequate to deal with it? If you forget to buy the milk on Friday morning, that’s not really anyone else’s problem but your own, is it?

Jewlia, did you not read the one about the mobile ‘phone advert with footie at the Wall?

“Democracy simply as majority rule is fascism of the mob.” That comment by Gabriel seems to me to be the core of his argument. Yet he and most commentators, seem to be much concerned with the closure of some shops on the Sabbath and “spitting rituals that we thought was only practiced by Amazonian tribes”.

Since Gabriel is from Canada he probably heard of the series of public inquiries that have been going on since 1993 about alleged Satanic Ritual Abuse in the town of Cornwall, Ontario. It all started with an allegation against a Catholic priest, then the local Bishop was accused – at a time before he had arrived in the Diocese, then the local police chief, then every successful businessman in the town. This pattern has been repeated in the USA – with Repressed Memory Syndrome – also in Australia, France, the UK and Ireland. I strongly suspect that you will see it in Israel eventually with a slightly different version of anti-clericalism involving false allegations of child abuse against rabbis. (Is there a word for secular Jews who hate rabbis?)

My point about Secularism is that it is NOT neutral. OK a person can be apathetic about religion but if you are anti-clerical then you are professing a form of hatred that is on the same level as anti-Semitism. Sneers about “ancient superstititions” and “spitting rituals” are not designed to convince anybody. In Ireland as in many other countries, it is the secularists who promote “ancient superstitions” like Blood Libel and Retrieved Memory.

an active attempt by religion to enforce itself on the populace.

Nonsense! Only in your warped imagination does religion somehow ‘enforce itself’. When the Sunday trading laws were relaxed, it wasn’t by democratic mandate – big business lobbied for the change. I can still remember half day closing on a Wednesday afternoon too. Britain is a poorer more atomised society for this, in my estimation.

like Britain, and many Western countries, is not a Christian country.

Well, the UK’s head of state must be Christian and the Church of England is, well the Church of England. And, the majority of the inhabitants of the UK identify as Christians…so by what measure is it not a Christian state?

Unfortunately, the procedural secularism that has served our nation so well has given way to a politicised form of ideological secularisation under New Labour, with a seething and irrational hatred in particular with regard to Christianity.

This seems a fair reflection on the situation. I can’t believe some are accusing you of lying, by citing taxis and the ’sherut’ (service cabs) as being available, when they are considered private transport. Taxis are too expensive, and the ’sherut’ only provides a skeleton service. By the same token, someone might as well argue that you can pick up your emergency fags in the nearest hotel.

Tel Aviv is not packed with open shops. Convenience stores are open, as are many bars and cafés, but the light bulb I need will have to wait until tomorrow. As it happens, I was in my kiosk getting some fags a while back when it was busted. I guess this is how Shabbat opening is ‘tolerated’.

I don’t travel much here, because when I have two days off I’m generally unable to get to where I want to go, and it would be closed anyway, by the time I got there. In effect, this means a lock-down from late Friday morning until late Saturday evening. I’ve lost two bikes at the train and bus station, in my dash to make the last Friday service. Unfortunately, bicycle thieves don’t observe Shabbat.

I’ve chatted to quite a number of people who are happy with the Shabbat laws, even though they break them as a matter of course, driving to places to buy the services they can’t get in their home towns. This strikes me as ludicrous, like drug users being in favour of prohibition (not uncommon).

That said, I love Yom Kippur, when no one drives (although it is not legally enforced). The towns and motorways get turned over to cyclists, and it is a sight to behold. I can’t help thinking they should also have a non-religious Yom Kippur, so the observant too, can get a chance to experience this. Of course, the reason everyone is on their bikes is because nothing – absolutely nothing – is open in Israel.

There are still small enclaves in the U.K where the debate regarding the Christian Sabbath is still raging and there have been protracted legal battles regarding Sunday ferry crossings from the Isle of Lewis to the Mainland. At least they have stopped chaining up the swings in the children’s playparks and now just have a sign asking you not to use them on a Sunday. Sunday runs and cordless phones are also frowned upon. Prior to the Sunday sailings it wouldn’t matter whether you had a car, as you were on an island with no way to get off. And it isn’t even sunny. I’d stick to Israel if I were you.
On civil marriage, I agree entirely.

It is indeed appaling that “There are still small enclaves in the U.K where the debate regarding the Christian Sabbath is still raging and there have been protracted legal battles regarding Sunday ferry crossings from the Isle of Lewis to the Mainland.”

There was a hysterical outbreak on the Channel island of Jersy last year about alleged child killing in the Haut de la Garenne residential school. This was probably based on similar witch-hunts in Ireland – child killing allegations against the Christian Brothers at times when no child died of any cause. (Try Googling the phrases “Murder of the Undead” and “Victimless Murders”). Jersey is between the UK and France but I don’t know of any similar allegations there. No only is Ireland the closest example, but the police officer who sparked the Jersey hysteria is from Derry.

The decline of Christianity is accompanied by nihilism and hysteria not by tolerance. What was the Victorian equivalent of the Haut de la Garenne fiasco?

See http://richardwebster-net.blogspot.com/2009/10/truth-it-would-seem-is-finally-out.html

“There was no equivalent to this lunacy at a time when the Catholic Church was powerful in Ireland.”

That is hardly surprising – http://www.tribune.ie/article/2009/may/24/brothers-fail-to-stop-the-truth-coming-out/

For more resources to counter the preposterous claims and outright dishonesty of Kilbarry1 see the link below:

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/infocusprint.php?num=32&subject=religious%20child%20abuse

Well I have no great amount of time for any religion but I do question the motives of people who want shops open 24 hours a day every day. Because it seems to me that some of these old religious customs provide the only protection low-paid workers have left from what amounts to virtual slavery.

There was a piece written for Comment is free by a Canadian who had the same complaints about the Rabbinut and the lack of civil marriages in Israel as Gabriel. Is it the same person?

Although the defeat of a free-for-all on Sunday trading was the only Commons defeat of Thatcher’s Premiership (effected by USDAW, the shop workers’ union), she and Major suceeded only too well in requiring the little people to work seven-day weeks in order to make ends meet or even just keep their jobs.

And now, Sarkozy is trying to repeal a law dating from 1906 and protecting the special character of Sundays. The first decade of the twentieth century was certainly not a high-point in France’s history as “the Eldest Daughter of Holy Mother Church”. It was in 1905 that France enacted a law, still in force, secularising all aspects of public life in a way which strikes most Britons as thoroughly draconian. For the very good reason that it IS thoroughly draconian. Yet the very next year, France legislated to protect Sundays.

After all, church attendance in Britain was hardly, if at all, higher twenty years ago than it is today. Yet Sundays were completely different. They were much more as they are in France. It is not as if you cannot buy anything in France on a Sunday. But it is frankly unlikely to occur to you to want to. The whole mood and pace are totally different, as they used to be here. Sunday afternoon, in particular, is sacrosanct, set aside for family and contemplation. Again, as used to be the case here.

‘Democracy must not be the tyrrany of the mob’ – unfortunately, if the majority want shops closed and don’t want to open them or work in them, the minority will just have to accept it. It is not a major inconvenience.

well said.your blog is informative one

I have no objection to laws existing to protect people from being coerced into working seven-day weeks, or to protect small businesses from larger companies that have the resources to arrange 24/7 shift work. But this is not about imposing a 24/7 working culture. I expect that most business would remain closed because they want to.

This is about preventing consenting adults from working on the Sabbath, in accordance with Jewish religious law. This is about the public transport network being shut down for the best part of two days a week. This is about a prohibition on non-religious marriage inside Israel.

As a personal protest, I am now going to cycle down to the Central Bus Station and buy something nice from the Kingdom of Pork, which, thankfully, does open on Saturdays.

(Is there a word for secular Jews who hate rabbis?)
Yes – Israelis !

And how does this story compare with the author’s point-of-view?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/silent-protest-greets-first-sunday-ferry-as-south-harris-defends-its-way-of-life-473596.html

After months of protest, the corrosive impact of the first Sunday ferry service on the religious culture of the Outer Hebridean island, its inhabitants made clear their feelings about the inaugural voyage by punctiliously observing the Sabbath.

In case the 18 passengers and five cars landing in a snowstorm at the village of Leverburgh after the 60-minute crossing from North Uist were in any doubt about the views of dissenting natives, a placard read: “Exodus: Remember the Sabbath Day to Keep it Holy.”

The prompt 10am arrival of the Loch Portain, operated by Scottish ferry company Caledonian MacBrayne, represents what leaders of the Western Isles’ staunchly Free Presbyterian communities consider the latest assault on their faith after the arrival of Sunday aircraft flights and limited shop openings.

The islands remain one of the last bastions of strict Sabbatarian observance, with the majority of the 1,950 people on South Harris accepting the rigours of a Sunday of church, prayer and no work. The ban on activity extends from children playing with toys to using public transport.

The Rev Andrew Coghill, of the Lord’s Day Observance Society, which had led the campaign against the ferry sailings, claimed that the opposition of a large majority of South Harris residents had been “trampled” by the introduction of the ferry service.

Hi Gabriel, interesting that you focus on stores here. I don’t have the problem, since I live in Bat Yam, in walking distance to Jaffa; and along the beach, you can always get the “emergency pack of cigarettes” and much else… But how about offices, kindergartens, schools and the university? Do you mind having them closed down for a day a week?

For more on these issues, please check out Religion and State in Israel and @religion_state on Twitter. BTW, Religion and State in Israel is not affiliated with any organization or movement.

Your statement about Britain being free from imposed religion is not true. British publicly funded schools are religious. We did not have a choice but to send children to a school where every day started with a prayer. You can have them excused by issueing a special request but that would mean that kids have to be separated from their mates. Therefore children were told tought to lie, “pretend” pray.

North America is free from imposed religion, but the UK is not.

off topic but news in:Chris Harman has died
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=19502

Tim…..little fish big fish….what are you talking about pts closed best part of two days…..get a grip tack your blinkers and dark glasses off.oh and ear muffs….what a shit life you must have.

Tim…..little fish big fish….what are you talking about pts closed best part of two days…..get a grip tack your blinkers and dark glasses off.oh and ear muffs….what a shit life you must have.

I’m living far from Tel-Aviv and not in the center of the country, in a very small town, but it takes max. 5 minutes driving to find all kind of open businesses on Shabbat. There are three huge shopping malls in the area, tens of movietheaters, tens of beach front bars, hundreds of garages and repairshops, huge discount furniture warehouses supplying childcare while the parents are shopping.
The only closed thing is public transport, but if you are not an invalid and have a bike, a motorbike or a car it doesn’t matter at all. (the gas stations are open too).
Gabriel you must be living in your dreamworld and not in Israel.

The Lord’s Day act, thanks to the 1982 introduction of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, was struck down.

This charter has become a nighmare. Its draconian provisions are enforced by H.R. tribunals that amount to little more than fascistic censorship boards. It’s a tool of the Far Left, and one that is used to enforce certain ideological positions and to punish and repress others the left considers unpopular.

To boot, jihadists Canada-wide are having a field day using/exploiting the charter’s religious tolerance provisions to incrementally impose islamist practices in the public space and to supress criticism of radical islam.

Let’s try these:

This is about preventing consenting adults from working

for less than minimum wage.

This is about preventing consenting adults from working

without labor union approval.

This is about preventing consenting adults from working

in the sex trade.

This is about preventing consenting adults from working

in a hand gun shop.

As far I can see, the idea the consenting adults can be prevented from working in a wide variety of ways, times, and occupations is a fundamental belief of all political parties. The original author seems to only object to ones that he, personally, finds inconvenient, as if the purpose of society is to arrange itself for his benefit. I consider this anti-religious because the objection isn’t the restriction, or the means by which it was imposed, but only with the motiviation behind it — i.e., it’s a thought-crime.

You seem to have a point but I think many countries have brought in 100% secularism. These religious thoughts have been existing for centuries together and hence for a “true secularism” to exist, it will take many more generations to come. What we can probably do now is to contribute in our little ways to sensitize and get more tolerance to our next generation. Slowly, millenniums later, all these difference of opinions will cease to exist.

Why can’t you finish your shopping on the other six days? Just like you, the people working in the shops would like to forget about work on Saturdays and Sundays. You are one of them minions for the supermarket chains. In Canada no doubt some hard-pressed Tamil or Chinese immigrant keep the 7-Elevens open to satisfy epicureans like yourself. Why don’t you just come over to Singapore where you can shop till you drop, 24/7.

I’m surprised no one makes the connection between the breakdown in civil behavior and the supression of traditional religion. When you lose a sense of the sacred that has infused a society for centuries, you then lose repsect for that society’s most cherished and revered things. A slow descent into anti-social activities starts to happen and citizens that once held a common moral code degenerate into anti-social, feral creatures.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1225880/Revealed-How-war-memorial-desecrated-Britain-week.html?ITO=1490

I was having a discussion with Sophia the other day and a similar notion came up.

The idea is that Jews will defend the essential Jewishness of the nation of Israel, while in European countries (and the US and other AngloNations)…they are in the coalition to promote minority rights, and diminish majority wishes and culture to promote minority well being and inconvenience or discomfort….celebrate diversity.

One wonders if the Western Left is going to advocate the disempowerment and the subjugation of Jewish culture to minority concerns and secularist ideals with regard to Israel as well. And the answer seems to be yes. Eventually opening the floodgates of non Jewish immigration (ending racist/groupist immigration policy) and therefore effecting the total destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.

This amounts to an anti Jewish (anti Semitic) position.

However Jews in European and AngloNation countries are in the vast marjoity in favor of just such policies when it comes to European Christian majority countries. Most of them seem to be in it for the Jews, whatever is best for Jews. Jewish tribalism and bigotry.

Nothing particularly high minded or universalist about most Jews (Leftist) positions in the US. That ruse has been exposed. Naked self interest. The funny thing is that Israel is exposing Jewish hypocrisy, as they advocate different policies for the Israel and European Christian nations. It would be nice if Israel teaches American Jews some lessons about majority rights and respect for the majority culture of a country. And then maybe we can get aways from the foolishness of Leftwing Zeitgeist in which everyone from certain groups is the worst sort of bigoted racist xenophobe if they dont support mass immigration and amnesty for millions of illegal immigrants…among a whole host of other cultural issues…some small some large.

Thanks for the opportunity to opine.

So, long as Palestinian and other Arab national movements and states retain their Islamic (or Christian) character, I doubt much will change in Israel.

For Marcus Philip. When I said
“There was no equivalent to this lunacy at a time when the Catholic Church was powerful in Ireland.” I went on to expain that “We didn’t convict Jews or Protestants on the basis of mob hysteria as Wall and McCabe were convicted.”

Nora Wall and Pablo McCabe were charged with two counts of rape one of which is supposed is have occured on the accusers 12th birthday – not an easy date to get wrong. McCabe was a homeless, mentally ill man but by an extra-ordinary chance there WAS an official record of where he was on that date and it was nowhere near the site of the supposed rape. The jury simply acquitted the two accused of that charge and convicted them on the other count which did not specify an exact date.

Normally in a rape trial in Ireland, if an accuser is shown to be a liar on ONE important issue the jury will not convict because her credibility is destroyed. I assume it is the same in the UK. The jury convicted this time because Nora Wall had been a nun. The accuser and her “witness” then gave an interview to a tabloid newspaper that published their names for the first time. It quickly emerged that BOTH of them had made several previous false allegations – against lay people not clergy – but this had been concealed from the Defence. One of their previous victims read the article, contacted Nora Wall’s family and the case started to collapse. It also emerged that the allegation against this man had been dealt with by personnel in the police and Chief State Solicitors Office who ALSO dealt with the case of Wall and McCabe. So we are not talking about an oversight here.

This kind of thing happened all the time to Jews and Protestants in the Ireland of Eamon de Valera and Archbishop McQuaid. Is that what you are saying Marcus?

Sunday/Saturday shopping is a somewhat trivial example of religiously inspired restrictions. Israel may well remove them in the near future – its, after all, a democracy, and it is within the power of the people to do so.

However, you, as a non-Muslim, are not even allowed into the City of Mecca at all. As for Canada being so tolerant of liberal opinions, how about your disgraceful so-called Human Rights Commissions?

” But how about offices, kindergartens, schools and the university? Do you mind having them closed down for a day a week?”

Umm..of course not and that’s a pretty strange question. Many people on this thread are ludicrously trying to make the Shabbat laws into some sort of worker protection thing. It isn’t. You can mandate a number of hours someone is allowed to work, the number of days they can work, and so on, and that is that.

Of course, there should be a weekend where most people don’t work and in Israel, Friday/Saturday makes sense. This brings me to another point. Yes, one can plan ahead of time and buy what you need on Friday. Israelis do and this is what leads to actually a much shorter weekend. Friday morning is the theoretical equivalent of Saturday morning elsewhere, yet for most Israelis, it is a frantic errand day or a half workday (kids go to school Friday morning), not a day to rest. You need to get up and get stuff done before all the stores shut or before you are stranded somewhere. This gives Israelis a ridiculously short weekend.

As for the closeness of Ra’anana to other cities. I do not have a car. Many Israelis do not. So, it’s not a five minute drive to Herzliya or wherever, it’s an hour walk minimum. Yes, I can take a taxi, but I shouldn’t have to. If you do live in Tel Aviv, you probably just about never leave the city and so the Shabbat laws don’t effect you all that much. The marriage laws and so on still do though.

“In Israel, there is a secular side to Shabbat as well. It is a relaxed day, where you can visit family (and know that they will be off), or just hang out with friends. The country takes a deep breath from its usual stressful ways. I am not religious, but I love Shabbat in Israel. It would be a shame to lose this kind of weekly event.”

A good post Stan…It’s not either or. I loved Sunday in Canada because I didn’t have to work, things were relaxed, and so on. It’s not “the government enforces shabbat” or “Shabbat isn’t special” it’s that government has no business being involved with enforcing religious beliefs. Also, small businesses manage even though they mostly close on Sunday in North America. The truth is that small, family businesses tend to be specialty stores these days. In Ra’anana, it will be things like wedding dress stores, used book stores, hair dressers, photo shops, and so on. These are stores that generally can afford to close a day a week (it might not be Saturday though) as people rarely need an emergency wedding dress. Look, the system in place in most of the Western world works fine. People have freedom to open their stores when they want, freedom to shop when they want and in every country I have ever been in, work far less than Israelis do.

Anyway, I think many are (purposefully) losing sight of the problem. The government is mandating based on religious beliefs what can and cannot be open. It is not based on workers rights (Israelis work more hours than should be legal anyway), it is not based on anything except religion. It is not, “you could do this or that”. Yes, I could go shopping on Friday and could take taxis and so on, but I shouldn’t have to. No democratic country should allow religion to dictate its laws. Forget, for a second the shopping. Imagine I want to visit a friend in Haifa on Saturday morning. How do I do it? Well, normally, I could take a bus. On Shabbat I can’t. So, I can’t visit this friend unless I am willing to shell out hundreds of shekels. Yes, I could have thought of that beforehand. Yes, I could buy a car, but no, I shouldn’t have to be stranded because of someone else’s religious beliefs.

“When we have settled our problems with our neighbours and when this issue has ceased to dictate the way people vote we will be able to tackle the important interior issues.”

This, I think is the #1 domestic problem in Israel. Israelis always say this and they really make no effort to improve the country. What exactly does say, the issue of the Golan Heights have to do with widespread racism in Israel? (Maybe another article, it really is shocking how public it is here). What does the future of Jerusalem have to do with whether I can get a cheeseburger if I want? The answer is nothing at all. It’s all just a deflection from dealing with anything and so nothing gets dealt with.

“However, you, as a non-Muslim, are not even allowed into the City of Mecca at all. As for Canada being so tolerant of liberal opinions, how about your disgraceful so-called Human Rights Commissions?”

Here is the “well, X is worse than Y so therefore Y is fine” argument. Well, they stone adulterers in some countries, should I then accept wife abuse? According to this “logical” process, yes! And give me a break about the HRC. It is a flawed body that effects 0.001% of Canadians. Do I think it should be massively reformed? Sure, and it will be but I have never known a single person that has ever had their life changed in any way by the HRC so it’s hardly a comparable issue.

The difference Gabriel is that we elect our government primarily to protect us and not to resolve social issues. We strangely consider our safety more important than whether there is provision for a Jew to marry a Moslem in Israel.

There is no law regulating what foods non-kosher restaurants are allowed to serve to their customers. You can get lasagne with meat and cheese at Spaghettim but I don’t think that cheeseburgers have ever been in demand in Israel.

I well understand the Tu Quoque fallacy you allude to, Gabriel. Where B is ten times worse than A however, it does have some resonance, particularly as to what those of us who wish to see injustices addressed should be applying ourselves to. You will have noted that I dealt with your point directly in my first paragraph, to which you do not respond.

As for “I have never known a single person that has ever had their life changed in any way by the HRC“, I think Steyn and Levant would take issue with that – they have had to spend much time and money defending themselves in the HRC’s kangaroo courts, and suffered serious freedom of speech constraints.

but I have never known a single person that has ever had their life changed in any way by the HRC

You are quite ignorant then …

Marcus second comment is “For more resources to counter the preposterous claims and outright dishonesty of Kilbarry1 see the link below:
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/infocusprint.php?num=32&subject=religious%20child%20abuse

The link refers to allegations of child abuse in Artane and Letterfrack which were run by the Christian Brothers and in Goldenbridge run by the Sisters of Mercy (Nora Wall’s congregation although she was not stationed there.)

As it happens those three institutions were also the focus of the child killing allegations against the brothers and the nuns in Ireland. Every single one of these allegations has now been disproved – just like the child killing hysteria in Jersey last year which was probably based on them.

The two links given by Marcus refer to the Ryan Report which indeed demonised the religious orders and accused them of the sexual, physical and emotional abuse of children. So how did judge Ryan deal with the child-killing claims. The answer is that he ignored them completely. This is in spite of the fact that the leaders of at least FOUR “Victims” groups had been involved in those allegations. The four Groups are Aislinn, Alliance for Healing, SOCA Ireland and SOCA UK. (SOCA = Survivors of Child Abuse).

Judge Ryan ignored any allegations that were obviously false (including child killing of course) and accepted as true any allegation that could not be proven false. It was literally a case of the religious being assumed guilty unless they could prove their innocence. And how does anyone PROVE decades after the supposed event that they did NOT abuse someone. Well apart from the child killing claims there were some others e.g.

a Christian Brother accused at a time when he would have been 2 years old:
allegations against religious who were not in the institution at the time;
claims about being raped in a building that did not exist on the relevant date.

I’m pretty sure that Ryan also ignored those in his Report. If a Brother was there at the same time as his accuser, that was enough to assume he was guilty.

To quote Marcus again, the Ryan Report consists of “preposterous claims and outright dishonesty”.

“Yes, I could buy a car, but no, I shouldn’t have to be stranded because of someone else’s religious beliefs.”

I’m not sure I see the logic.Why not?

I was greatful for Shabbat. As a teacher I worked 5 1/2 days a week, insteed of the 5 a week here with a full weekend off.

It really meant something. And I was living in the middle of nowhere, in Mitzpe Ramon.

What???
Except for civil marriage, with which I totally agree, the post is a collection of half-lies and half-cooked thoughts.

“The issue is not whether most citizens support this which they may, it’s that countries must safeguard the rights of minorities”
Since when buying a pack of cigarrettes on Saturday is a human right???

Again, nobody is forbidding you to take a car or a taxi and go to the super mall “seven stars”, just outside your city, on Saturday.

It has happened to me that I forgot to buy milk on Friday. I have two kids, so I really need it. My solution: I asked the neighbor for some! He did the same with me. Other solution: I took my car, and bought milk in the Tiv Taam (the Russian supermarket in my city). I actually have two of them, one in the East and one in the West of my city.

Your article is absolutely nonsense from start to finish. I recognize that we may have something to discuss with the religious people, but you are an extremist, and I suggest that if you cannot find in you the will to compromise with them, then get back to Canada מיד.

As if Israel were Iran! In my building we have Orthodox people and secular people like me. Never had any problem with anyone.

I don’t know why do you live in Israel. You don’t seem to have been born here, so why did you come at all if everything is such a pain for you? Religious people, settlements, Netanyahu, Zionists…

I would just like to say that Gabriel isn’t 100% right on this. While in Israel Saturday is a no works day, it is only for Jews. Muslims don’t work on Fridays and Christians on Sundays (this is in the matter of law, whether it’s actually implemented and how much of it I don’t know and that’s another matter anyways). I think the main problem with Israeli laws (regarding marriage, work days etc) is mainly the fact that Israel doesn’t recognize non-religion. In any case, regarding this work day law, I’m pretty sure you are allowed to substitute Saturday for a different day (small stores are known to be closed on Tuesdays, and while I’m not sure I think this is instead of Saturday).

Regarding marriage, the fact that the country doesn’t recognize non-religion causes many absurd situations. When people here talk about civil union, gay marriage isn’t on their mind. What they mean, is that a man who’s last name is “Levi” or “Cohen” could be able to marry a divorced woman; or a bastard could marry someone who isn’t a bastard (today they can’t even with DNA proof that they aren’t siblings).

Actually, I am mistaken. Milk is sold in every kiosk in Shabbat. It happened once that it was shabbat and also some holyday, and I lacked milk. So I asked my neighbor.

Adriane…..CHRC….Ezra Levant

Adriane…..CHRC….Ezra Levant

There was one cafe even in Mizpe Ramon, which sold stuff on Shabbat, if you really needed it. Then everything opens in the evening. As for transport, there is always sherut, albeit at a price.

Gabriel, you could visit your friend in Haifa on Friday night, sleep there and go back home on Saturday night. He is a friend, right? If you are willing to travel 150 km to see him, to host you for the night is the least he can do.

” But how about offices, kindergartens, schools and the university? Do you mind having them closed down for a day a week?”

“Umm..of course not and that’s a pretty strange question” (Gabriel)

It is a strange question if you have never stopped to think that people who might work on Saturday may have children who they can’t leave at home alone. There is no kindergarten on Shabat, so what can they do if they are told: “your day off is on monday, shabat you work”?

My personal opinion is that I like Shabat the way it is. I used to find it difficult when I didn’t have a car, but now that I have (and certainly, I did not buy a new one), its is not anymore. Most shabats I stay at home and enjoy how quiet it is. Some shabbats I take the car and go to the mountains for a picnic.
You should get a used car, Gabriel.

“You can mandate a number of hours someone is allowed to work, the number of days they can work, and so on, and that is that.”

That you can, Gabriel, but far from ‘and that is that’, you will always find some employers who take absolutely no notice and employees who need their jobs so much that they dare not complain. I worked for a fairly large company who made me sign to say that I wouldn’t work more than 38hrs a week – whilst knowing full well that I did at least 10 more and was expected to carry on doing it. It was a company exercise in backside-covering. I have to take personal responsibility too – it was up to me to hold them to the document I signed – but there are many, many people who simply can’t because they fear their jobs may end up on the line.

As for the rush on Friday – go Thursday or even Wednesday – there’s no mandate to say that all pre- Shabbat organisation/shopping has to be undertaken on Friday morning. I can’t speak for men but most housewives have routines and it really isn’t that hard to get organised.

I don’t know if you have a family of your own, Gabriel, but spending a day with them, doing nothing but enjoying their company and doing things together is infintely more valuable than shopping.

Actually, what Gabriel considers his “rights” is very much dependent on being an adult single person with no children. (In fact much of the theory of Liberalism was always conceived as having an individual who is a single adult man with no attachments). Age and having a family cures the more extremist strands in a Liberal person.

A propos of Israeli, I recently saw Oren Peli’s $15 000 Paranormal Activity. It’s better than Blair Witch and has some really scary moments.

Gabriel does have a valid point about freedom from religions and their taboos.

But however a society is ordered, there will always be a “weekend”. This is because of the schools. It would be rather oppressive to make the children attend school every day, and they all have to have the same days off, so that siblings at different schools can make use of their free time together. This follows through into a provision for the generations of their parents and grandparents, who have a natural right to their day off, co-incident with that of their children. This should be honoured for all workers except those in occupations which need to be 24/7, like hospitals, power stations, emergency services, public transport, livestock farming.

But this is hardly true of the retail sector. If they want to open on the national day off, they should be allowed to, but staff in non-essential occupations should not be compelled to work that day.

Even in a totally secularised society, there should be provision for a family day, in which children, their parents and grandparents can be together. Whether that is going to church, or a grand day out in the car.

According to Gabriel: “In Israel, it is impossible to not have your life impacted by the religious beliefs of others.”

In most countries the beliefs of others whether religious or otherwise, do tend to have an impact. In Ireland it is impossible for a non-related adult to be alone with a child because of the climate of hysteria created by secular liberals. This means for example, that if a child is being abused at home and wants to speak privately to a favourite teacher, he cannot do so. The teacher must leave the door open OR have a colleague present to ensure that he himself is not falsely accused.

There is no “religious” equivanent to this type of hysteria. Catholics are not making false allegations of child abuse against liberals and did not do so even when the Church was powerful.

Gabriel and many posters on this site are very concerned about people’s inability to go shopping on the Sabbath. Is that really the most serious issue where “Freedom from Religion” is concerned?

Sabbath observance has been a central feature of Judaism for the longest time. Israel, considering that it regards itself as a Jewish state, naturally observes the Sabbath in some form.

Also Israel contains a large religious and traditional body of Jews, for whom Sabbath observance is deeply important. In order for all Jews to be comfortable living in the State, a measure of compromise is essential.

No law in Israel prohibits individuals in the privacy of their home, or even in the street, from violating the Shabbos. There is no law that will come to your home and demand that you turn off your TV, or prevent you from using your microwave. All that is asked for is a measure of observance in the public domain.

Gabriel if you really can’t stomach the Jewish nature of the “Jewish” state, then perhaps you should live like a gentile in Toronto.

Better yet, I pray that your heart opens to the beauty of Shabbos, and that week after week you bask in the holy and peaceful atmosphere of the day of rest.

Shavuah Tov /Gut Voch.

Not knowing Gabriel, I can’t say, Fabian, but in addition to the differences between single-adult and family-type lifestyle, I also think perhaps women would be more keen to have a specific family-orientated day off than men – at least, those who are working mums. There is such huge pressure for working mums and even more for single working mums. I have no idea how the latter cope if they are in 7-day-per-week type working environments and have to take their fair share, shift-wise.

When I immigrated to Israel in 1975 it was indeed very difficult to find any shops open on Shabbat. there was one little shop on Jabotinsky Street in Ramat Gan to which I would have to run to to get fags if I had run out

These days its a completely different situation as everybody knows perfectly well. It really started when the kibbutzim began marketing all sorts of products. they had an unfair advantage over shops in the cities who could”nt compete. so gradually things began to open up. Its still a disgrace that there is no public transport and that religion continues to poison the country. So its a struggle – but is”nt that what politics is about?

Let us have for a moment a broader view.

Much of Israeli legislation and general approach to a number of issues, from land law all the way to the small matter of religion, is rooted in Ottoman law (as it is in the neighbouring countries). The Ottoman custom was to see the society at large not as a collection of individual citizens (an Enlightenment innovation that didn’t reach Sultan’s Court in Istanbul) but as an aggregate of distinct religious communities, each with its own self-rule, legal and quasi-legal powers. Essentially, much that happened within religious community was a matter for that community.

Much of this has survived in Israeli legislation and political arrangements. The root of this is that every citizen is classified by religion: in your ID you have a “Nationality and religion” rubric which, although ambiguous with regard to Jews (Are Jews a nation? A religion? The rubric is all-encompassing) is clearly religious otherwise: you can be “Muslim” or “Christian” but not, say, Palestinian or Armenian or… well, a Turk. (And, incidentally, you can’t be “Israeli” either.)

And this small rubric designates much of your life, in particular your marriage, divorce and death. Some are comfortable with this, others aren’t. It also leads to many other unwelcome consequences. Thus, “Jew” is, for legal purposes, synonymous with “Orthodox Jew”. Reform, Liberal or Masorati Jews have no legal rights. Of course, they can assemble and pray as much as they want, but once they wish to marry, it is the Orthodox Rabbinate for them. (And while they pray, their Rabbis are not paid by the state: their taxes, as well as the taxes of the secular and the atheists, pay for the official Rabbis, the Imams and the Priests.)

And it cuts the other way. When Religion cohabitates with State, both are infected. Thus, local religious matters in an Israeli locality are managed by “Religious Council”: a proportion of its members are nominated by Rabbinate (or its equivalent in other religions) and a proportion by the local council. And so, a good share of people with control over day-to-day budgets and appointment of Rabbis are secular.

And over to another anomaly. Ask yourself why everything is closed in Raanana on the Sabbath and open in Herzliya… Well, this is really up to local authority – and local authority (like the government in Jerusalem) is a coalition. If you want religious support on the local council, this is (part of) the price.

You might ask: if so, why doesn’t the secular majority (where it is a majority, and I believe that in Raanana it is) form a coalition excluding religious parties? Well, sometimes they do. But the reality is that religion is not (and shouldn’t be) the only issue splitting politics, and this has an effect on local arrangements.

I could have gone on and on. Over to education, where large share of schools are in the hands of religious fundamentalists (Agudat Yisrael and Shas), who don’t bother to provide any sensible education, by any modern standards. (Not all religious schools are like that, I should add for the sake of fairness, this is why I’ve mentioned Aguda and Shas explicitly.) Over to many other issues.

Of course, one way is to put your head in the sand or, in this typically nasty and unpleasant manner of those for whom anybody opposing them is evil-by-definition, tell Gabriel to go back to Canada. But this will not solve the problem. And the issue is not to confront religious intolerance with anti-religious intolerance but to create a society where individual citizens are valued and treated as individuals, not as an often-unwilling part of a religious community.

Israel is Jewish, if one wants to live in a country which has no Jewish influence, leave Israel.

I agree with this post. Judaism in Israel should be considered a pillar of its cultural heritage, and Jewish values can inform the philosophy of public life (along with other values), but religiosity need not be so pervasive. That’s not what the original Zionists had in mind, far from it, in fact.

The problem, as I understand it, is that the Orthodox have power well beyond their numbers because they control swing parties in a proportional system that often generates coalition governments. That’s why they get so many concessions on religious policy.

I wouldn’t portray the West as being neutral on religion, however. Christianity pervades the atmosphere in a cultural sense. Thousands of years of heritage cannot be shucked off so fast, even if secularism is accepted as a philosophy. So, while the calendar is a manifestation of that, it’s more than just question of a few meaningless days off here and there. In Germany, for instance, at least in Bavaria, crucifixes still adorn classroom walls in state schools. That’s just one small example. More generally, Christianity is the source of much of the the West’s cultural and intellectual heritage.

Just look at what happens on Christmas, and then see what happens on the Jewish high holy days. There is no question as to which is the minority religion, the minority–and sometimes marginalized–heritage. It’s a question of numbers…as well as tradition, even if all religions are officially considered equal.

One other thing: Are shops closed on Saturday even in Tel Aviv? I could see Jerusalem, but I wonder if this is true everywhere in Israel.

“But this will not solve the problem”

Muffin, when you have a person like Gabriel for whom “a problem” is that he cannot buy cigarrettes in the Shabbat, and his “solution” is to destroy the Shabbat for everyone, then I think that the most appropiate answer is “go back to Canada”.

Not that I think that some things are worth changing (I am strongly in favor of civil marriages), but his problem with Shabbat is an obvious exageration.

Shabat is not “a religiously” imposed obligation. The Jewish people invented the Shabbat, the day of rest. Neither Rome nor Greece had a day of rest. They used to joke about us for that. Then all the world found out what a great thing is a public day of rest.

We as a people value the Shabbat as a cultural marker of Judaism. Not every country must be just like the other. Tourists that come to Israel find the Shabbat custom appealing, just like they find appealing seeing an Arab riding a camel. Some people have the Eiffel Tower or the Big Ben. We have Jerusalem and the Shabbat. Come to Israel and enjoy our exotism!

Since my name has been mentioned, I’m Jewish but secular.

I’m still a Jew.

Jewishness isn’t defined by type or degree of religious observation, is it. Jews are a people, we are of all types, races, backgrounds, nationalities, anybody can become a Jew; we are not an exclusive club although not so many people seem to want to join us.

E.V. on the other hand has been arguing for whiteness, so you’ll know, and is against “dark people” and other “undesirables” being in Europe. He’s trying to make an argument that Israel = white Christian heterosexual male Europeans which in his mind = Western Civilization and are a “victim group”.

He actually claims that Israel is “white” whereas the Arabs are “dark people” and that’s why we’re being attacked by the Arabs; and therefore we should have sympathy for the BNP and other fascists.

He is f.o.s.

Anyway I think the really vexing issue Gabriel brings up is the fact that civil marriage isn’t recognized in Israel.

What’s wrong with celebrating Shabbat even if you’re an aetheist? Simply as a tradition it is wonderful isn’t it?

Regardless, the issue of Israel as a Jewish state is not about Israel as a religious state or in any sense an ethnic state, in fact the kibbutzniks and trade unionists were pretty far Left. There’s been stress between secular and frum from Day One; it’s part of being Jewish let alone about Israel I suspect. Among the religious there are arguments and great hairsplitting about the proper way to be observant.

Israel is a state reborn a) because Jews are a people but also because b) Jews are in danger of persecution elsewhere and need a place to live.

We didn’t rebuild Israel simply for fun and people who try to disconnect the existence of Israel from Jewish history are deliberately being obtuse and/or bigots.

Regardless I am a firm believer in civil marriage.

I don’t think Jewishness is defined by how frum one is. Most Jews and most Israelis probably agree with me.

Certainly the people who persecute and stereotype Jews agree with me.

For example I was reading an article about Saudi Arabia, re a particularly awful death sentence in the Telegraph and the comment thread turned into a nasty attack on Jews. Go figure.

One of the comments equated Larry David with “the Jews” and we are all now blamed for pissing on a picture of Jesus.

That’s right. “The Jews” have pissed on a picture of Jesus.

This is antisemitism, period.

Anway I do not think Jewishness is religiousness. It’s so much more than that.

Being Jewish is about heritage, about language, about history and shared experience AND it is about (for some) being religious.

It is also about an identity which has been imposed upon us by bigoted dominant cultures who wouldn’t accept Jews as equals or as citizens even, in some cases, where Jewish families had long since converted.

EV in his “discussions” with me is trying to claim that whiteness = Western Civilization and/or Britishness. He is making a racist argument and trying to defend the BNP.

Worse, he is equating the BNP and other white supremacist movements with Israel.

This isn’t at all the same thing as I am arguing and it isn’t what Israel is about either so please people don’t buy into his shit.

European court: No crucifixes in Italian schools

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091103/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_religious_symbols

I completely agree.

I lived in Israel for a few years and the reason left was the disgusting institutionalization of Judaism I found which has made it impossible to live a life free of religious influence and coercion.

Israel is gradually destroying its Jewish-internationalist foundations in favor of fundamentalist fervor, and turning Israel into a theocracy no better than its neighbors.

This would be the most un-Jewish thing that could happen to it.

As a piece of pointless information, Sunday trading was strenuously opposed in England by Mike Eavis’ (he of Glastonbury festival fame) brother. Philip Eavis, a Liberal Democrat councillor in Somerset.

I told you it was pointless information.

I completely agree.
I lived in Israel for a few years and the reason I left was the disgusting institutionalization of Judaism I found which has made it impossible to live a life free of religious influence and coercion.
Israel is gradually destroying its Jewish-internationalist foundations in favor of fundamentalist fervor, and turning Israel into a theocracy no better than its neighbors.
This would be the most un-Jewish thing that could happen to it.

Day of rests, animal throat slitting rituals, etc are all the inventions of tribal groups. All tribes have these customs everywhere in the world and is not unique to the “chosen people”. And Christians celebrate Sundays, but they do not observe; it is been like than from day one unless some seek to talibanise Christianity. So a good night out from 11pm Sat to 5am Sun will be just fine.

Day of rests, animal throat slitting rituals, etc are all the inventions of tribal groups.

So was almost everything else… including a good night out 11pm Sat to 5am Sun.

Being Jewish is about heritage, about language, about history and shared experience AND it is about (for some) being religious.

It is also about an identity which has been imposed upon us by bigoted dominant cultures who wouldn’t accept Jews as equals or as citizens even, in some cases, where Jewish families had long since converted.

—–

Being ethnic English is about heritage, about history and shared experience, and for most its about being Christian.

Its also about an identity that has been imposed upon us by bigoted other cultures who are now attempting to marginalize us, discriminate against us, and disempower us and subordinate our culture to others in our own indigenous homeland….legally and through informal enforcement of Political Correctness in the public sphere.

Try to expand your consciousness to see it from the other guys perspective Sophia. Instead of indicting all of White European Christians as evil monsters that should they show any tribal pride or assertiveness of their rights you immediate roll out the PC enforcement power words, Neo Nazi, Inquisition, intolerance, the spectre of the Holocaust, hater, racist, white supremacist, and so on and so forth…

“So was almost everything else…including a good night out 11pm Sat to 5am Sun.”

The point is that its precisely those things we do NOT get from tribal groups, but from modern democratic societies that are the most precious.

The Zionist idealists who died for Israel did not do so that our State becomes a creepy ortho ghetto for unenlightened neo-shtetl dwellers/Jewish jihadists.

We returned from galut in order to realize ourselves fully as Jews, not to become the Jewish version of Iran.

A good night out should be a universal dispensation for mankind. But forcing me to hire an ortho rabbi at my wedding, walk a km to buy cigarettes on Shabbat and drive 2 hours to kibbutz Mizrah so I can buy some bacon is not only shitty and anti-democratic but the worst shtetl mentality. Backwards idiocy dressed up as holiness.

Unworthy of the Jewish people.

Aren’t Jewish people suppose to have their Sabbath today. I thought you were suppose to close your doors and take your telephones out?

“Aren’t Jewish people suppose to have their Sabbath today. I thought you were suppose to close your doors and take your telephones out?”

How many of your anti-Zionist self-proclaimed Jewish friends do that?

Escape Velocity

You have the right to bitch like an Israeli when the UK reaches 20% foreigners, as is the case in Israel. Otherwise, you have no right to jump on Sophia’s bandwagon.

The English enslaved myriad continents, destroyed their peoples and stole their resources — and yet you whine about a few brown immigrants? What a pathetic pussy!

You ever wonder why the most powerful country on earth has the most immigrants, brown peoples and Jews?

“But forcing me to hire an ortho rabbi at my wedding, walk a km to buy cigarettes on Shabbat and drive 2 hours to kibbutz Mizrah so I can buy some bacon is not only shitty and anti-democratic but the worst shtetl mentality” (Leon)

Because making a supremous effort to consume bacon is the ultimate Jewish thing!

“Aren’t Jewish people suppose to have their Sabbath today”

Shabbat already ended. Of course, not when Gabriel posted.

“We returned from galut in order to realize ourselves fully as Jews, not to become the Jewish version of Iran.”

Oh yes, ditching everything that has been central and fundamental to the Jewish people for thousands of years, is the way to realise ourselves fully as Jews.

Most Israelis in my experience, religious and secular alike, are prepared to respect each other, and prepared to accommodate each other in order to live together successfully. This is an intricate balancing act, which should not be damaged by fanatics on either the religious or secular side.

Well, YossiUK, in my experience most Israelis are not prepared to respect each other. “Accommodate” is different from “respect”, mind you. And this, incidentally, doesn’t augur well for the future of Israel.

The problem with respect is that it is a two-way street. You believe that you are privy that all that is fundamental to the Jewish identity. Fine, that is your belief. The problem, though, is that you believe (honestly, but that’s beside the point) that it is your sacred duty to make me embrace the same belief and that it is vital not just for my individual salvation but for the collective salvation of the Jewish people. In this you aren’t different, in principle, from missionaries of any other religion (and if you want missionary atheists like Richard Dawkins to be listed as well, no problem). Now, this is a very bad prescription for living together in respect.

To respect each other there must be in your mind, as it is in mine, that scintilla of doubt, the knowledge that the truths in which we believe are not revealed – alternatively, that they are revealed through fallible human interpretation. In other words, that I might not share your truth but I should respect it. And the problem, Yossi, is that, hard as much as I try to do so, it is not reciprocated. One-sided respect withers after a while.

And then, in the Israeli context, there is another problem. Organised religion in Israel is Big Business and Big Employer. A perceptible proportion of the GDP and of taxpayers money is spent on an army of kashrut supervisors, on bloated rabbinical courts, on the bureaucracy of local religious councils, on “schools” which educate to nothing valuable to modern society and economy. And you know what, Yossi? In the short term this fleeces the population and offends the secular. In the long term, it will poison and destroy religion. Which should be your problem more than it is mine.

Whilst there is nothing I disagree with personally in this piece, or rather, to be a little less churlish… I agree entirely! Reading it, I kept wanting to qualify stuff and add caveats. This piece needs to be about 8 times as long as is to cover the ground of this ’space’, even vaguely adequately.

But, to precis things, as someone without a hint of any kind of any attachment towards any superstition whatsoever, one who is a hard-core materialist empiricalist, I cut Israel waaaay more slack than otherwise I would on their rather ridiculously silly fooskless state superstition. Simply because of the reason that the ‘Zionist entity’ was established in the first place and that this reason is still…um…kosher!

If those reasons were not there, I’d be inclined argue the toss with a tad more verve.

…..But anyway, I think it’s a more realistic goal to remove the special privileges conferred on the official state superstition in Blighty. I’m 49, and I expect that to be achieved in my life time.

“The problem, though, is that you believe (honestly, but that’s beside the point) that it is your sacred duty to make me embrace the same belief and that it is vital not just for my individual salvation but for the collective salvation of the Jewish people.”

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Perhaps what I have said gave the wrong impression and if so, I regret that.

I do not see it as my sacred duty to make you embrace the same belief as me. I see it as my duty, to convey as best as possible, through my actions and words, the truth and beauty of Judaism. Your “salvation” is between you and G-d. Only He knows what He expects from you, considering your personal circumstances and your abilities etc. I am not privy to that information and so would not presume to speculate on your standing in His eyes.

Yes I would like to see the wider Jewish nation return to full observance, just like you would presumably like to see the wider Jewish nation improve itself in other ways. I do not believe that force, or coercion are the way to go. A persons observance cannot be forced, it must be a genuine heartfelt service of G-d, because of a genuine love and respect of G-d.

You say the respect is only one way. Well I am sad that you feel that any respect you extend to me, would not be reciprocated.

Clearly we do not agree with each other on many issues, and we may even bitterly disagree about many things. But I value you as an individual human being and Jew. I wouldn’t not want to cause you any suffering or difficulty.

From Leon:
“The Zionist idealists who died for Israel did not do so that our State becomes a creepy ortho ghetto for unenlightened neo-shtetl dwellers/Jewish jihadists.

We returned from galut in order to realize ourselves fully as Jews, not to become the Jewish version of Iran.”

Jewish secular “liberals” seem to be very similar to the Irish variety i.e. you prove your TOLERANCE by dehumanising the religious enemy. The Religious Affairs correspondent for our biggest Irish newspaper, wrote a biography of a famous Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid in which he falsely accused McQuaid of being a homosexual paedophile. EVERYONE agrees that the allegations are false – including historians who otherwise admire the book!

http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/001289.html

However none of them objected to this guy being appointed Religious Affairs correspondent. I assume the reason for this curious behaviour is that secular liberals regard hatred of religious people as being a Good Idea. As the religious are evil, any attempt to demonise them is obviously justified.

Sorry I should have explained that the guy published his book about the Archbishop first – in 1999 – and was appointed Religious Affairs correspondent for the Irish Independent later – around 2004/5. The appointment was probably a reward for his noble work in promoting secularism. So courageous too.

Oh, Yossi, you don’t cause me suffering and I am delighted that my respect is reciprocated. If so, however, I am afraid that you would have found yourself at odds with both the religious establishment in Israel and with an overwhelming consensus among the Orthodox in Israel.

Let me give you an example. I often fly to Israel, sometimes with Israeli, sometimes with British airlines. Now, on El Al and other Israeli airlines there is strict kashrut imposed on all passengers (many a time I tried to explain the situation to a baffled “goy”, why he can’t have milk in his coffee after lunch – milk in coffee is a filthy habit but people are allowed filthy habits!). And, of course, no Israeli airlines fly on Sabbath. And this is explained by the imperative to “respect the religious” who otherwise wouldn’t be able to use the above airlines. Yet, when I am going to Israel on BA flights, I find them full of religious people, including frumm – and it seems that they aren’t bothered by the guy next to them eating non-kosher food or the airplane being in service seven days a week.

How can you explain this but as an attempt (quite successful, as the case might be) to force religious practices and code of behaviour on secular Israelis, whether they wish them or not?

Mind you, I have no problem with measures that, while restricting somehow the freedom of secular people, are important to bring about tolerance and life together in one community. Thus, I have no problem with a religious city like Bnei Brak forbidding travel on the Sabbath within its boundaries or with the food in all public institutions in Israel (hospitals, government offices, police, IDF, …) being kosher, so that all citizens of the state can use these institutions safely and equally. But the line must be drawn at measures that are aimed at forcing observance on those who don’t wish to be bound by it. It is rather a simple test.

When you ask someone what freedom of religion is, the usual answer will be “the freedom to practice religion”.

Unfortunately for far too many religious extremists it means the ability to force one’s religion onto others.

These people are the cause of a good deal — possibly the majority — of the world’s troubles.

How can you explain this but as an attempt (quite successful, as the case might be) to force religious practices and code of behaviour on secular Israelis, whether they wish them or not?

Of course you can’t.

As a ‘goy’ allow me milk in my coffee (warm preferably), a decent bacon and egg breacfast, a half decent shiraz once the sun is over the yardarm and my regular, Saturday lap-dancer ‘constitutional’….and I’m a happy bunny.

Otto: USDAW, the shopworkers’ union, fought Sunday trading on the grounds that they knew – quite accurately – that it would sooner or later mean that workers would be obliged to work Sundays. As it has, of course.

Nonsense. No-one is legally obliged to work Sundays or any other day; slavery was abolished in the UK over 2 centuries ago.

What you mean, of course, is that if someone is providing a product or service, they have to provide one that people are prepared to pay for, if they want to get paid.

Some shoppers want to shop on Sundays, so shops have the choice of opening on Sundays or going without money. Some shops choose the former, and they thus want workers who will work on sundays. Shop workers then have the same choice: work on sundays or go without money. And when the shop workers spend their money, they get to choose what to spend it on, which determines what jobs other people do.

Thus the invisible hand ensures that people who want money get it by making/doing things other people want.

After months of protest, the corrosive impact of the first Sunday ferry service on the religious culture of the Outer Hebridean island, its inhabitants made clear their feelings about the inaugural voyage by punctiliously observing the Sabbath.

They can go fuck themselves. It is time theists were stopped from trying to shove their bronze-age bullshit down people’s throats.

How DARE they try and tell me I cannot shop on a Sunday!

“They can go fuck themselves. It is time theists were stopped from trying to shove their bronze-age bullshit down people’s throats.

How DARE they try and tell me I cannot shop on a Sunday!”

Is this guy a REAL secular liberal or is he a secret reactionary cunningly plotting to discredit the liberal agenda?

I see no point in putting Israel in the frame, or, for that matter, any part of the western world which seeks to maintain a sabbath tradition. If you want to dismantle religious repression and denial of human liberty, start at the beginning. Start with the big one. Tackle the religion that bans non-believers from living and breathing on it’s territory.

If you are serious and honest about tackling a problem, you deal with the biggest things first, and work your way down.

Gabriel, thank you for your post. You may find interesting a newly-released documentary called “Faces of Israel” that explores the balance between religion and state in the country specifically through the marriage process and civil unions debate. You can check it out at http://www.facesthemovie.com

Let me know what you think. Cheers, Amy

Reading Kilbarry1’s first few posts reminded me of a case that happened in a small town near the city in Canada where I grew up.

He’s wrong to think that the hysteria of priests accused of pedophilia is “anti-clerical” hysteria, because in Saskatchewan the same thing happened except that those who were accused were secular kindergarten or preschool teachers and the accuser was a religious nutcase who eventually admitted to the CBC that her accusation was based on God talking to her and telling her that the workers were Satanists who were using children in Satanic rituals.

The fact that she was merely mad didn’t prevent a huge disruption where all of the children were interviewed by psychologists and the useless results of interviewing toddlers presented to a court room.

There is certainly hysteria involved here, but I don’t think that distrust of religion is the crux of it.

My initial reaction to this article was that it was perfect for CiF …..

S.O. Muffin

Now, on El Al and other Israeli airlines there is strict kashrut imposed on all passengers

El-Al is owned by the government and as such it is obliged by law to keep kashrut. Everybody is free to use other airlines.

And, of course, no Israeli airlines fly on Sabbath.

Apart from El-Al every Israeli airlines are operating on Shabbat. (Arkia, Sun d’Or, etc.) Doing this naturally they can’t get kashrut certificate. They don’t mix milk and meat in their service because 99% percent of the secular Israelis wouldn’t eat or drink it, but they don’t enforce kashrut.
BTW if you are asking for adding milk to your coffee on any airline you will get exactly the same “parveh” coffee-whitener.

Josh Scholar
“There is certainly hysteria involved here, but I don’t think that distrust of religion is the crux of it.”

Hysterical attacks on the Catholic Church started world-wide in the early 1990s at a time when Satanic Ritual Abuse was close to being discredited. So SRA was not closely connected to attacks on the Church – except in the Cornwall, Ontario witch-hunt that continues to the present day. The original allegation in Cornwall was made in 1993 and was directed at a Catholic priest. I suspect that belief in SRA would be dead there, as nearly everywhere else in the world, if it was not for the connection with anti-clericalism.

“[In Saskatchewan] her accusation was based on God talking to her and telling her that the workers were Satanists who were using children in Satanic rituals.”

I agree that SRA is a form of “religious” lunacy but it is definitely not linked to the mainstream Churches. In Ireland we had NO Satanic Ritual Abuse and little Repressed Memory. Both are developments (or distortions) of Freudian ideas. In Ireland the Church denounced Freudianism as a threat to Catholic doctrines on sin, free will and personal responsibility. By the time the Church lost its influence here, SRA was dead and RM was under strong attack. So we largely escaped both forms of hysteria. What we got instead was what I call “Murder of the Undead” i.e. allegations of child killing by the Christian Brothers, many of which relate to times when no child died of any cause. This is outright lying rather than semi-deluded hysteria.

The funny thing is that when our child killing witch-hunt was re-incarnated on the Channel island of Jersey last year it DID take the form of hysteria rather than lying. Go figure!

Important things first: Fabian – does that mean we can say Mazal Tov? Boy or girl?

Secondly, I don’t really see the point of this piece. Complaining about Shabbat trading laws in Israel on a British-based blog is not really going to make a difference. If Gabriel wants to buy fags in Ra’anana on a Saturday morning then he should get himself onto the local council and lobby from there. If he wants to see civil marriage and burial more freely available, then he should campaign for it, join Meretz etc. That’s the way it works in a democracy.
Personally, I have supported civil marriage and burial for years and some progress has been made on the latter front. What’s important, however, in such a diverse society as Israel, is that all citizens should feel as comfortable as possible. Obviously we are not going to acheive the nirvana of everyone being completely satisfied,so there has to be give and take too. I’m perfectly happy to organise my life so that shops can be closed and buses not run on Shabbat if that helps make others feel better, just as I am happy to work an extra shift so that my Russian Orthodox colleagues can celebrate their Christmas or my Muslim colleagues Eid el Fittr, because I know they will cover for me on Rosh HaShana.
Whilst I am not in the least bit observant, one of the things I have missed most whilst here in England is that madcap rushing around on a friday lunchtime to get everything organised before the calm of Shabbat descends in the late afternoon. And let’s face it, the Jewish holidays just don’t feel right outside of Israel exactly because there is not the sense that a whole country is engaged in the celebration and that ordinary life stops in order for that to happen.
Research has shown that people have a better connection to their community when they feel a link to that community’s history and culture. I would be very careful about imposing a uniform secular ideal based on consumerism upon any society. It certainly doesn’t seem to have done much for the sense of community and the ties between people in Britain as far as I can see.

Perhaps the author could enlighten us how in perfect Canada (Quebec) the language rights of the minority are restricted by the majority, to the point where a store displaying a sign (inside) in the ‘wrong’ language can receive a stiff fine. Does any other secular democratic country have similar legislation? Has the author ever noticed how many Quebec refugees reside in Toronto?

Now, Peter the Hungarian, why is El Al supposed to enforce kashrut? This is the whole point which you have avoided.

Let us take it for granted that that religious citizens of Israel (and, when relevant, religious visitors to the country) deserve two unimpeachable rights: (a) to be served with food that in their eyes is proper to eat (from religious point of view, no airline food is fit for consumption on culinary grounds) and (b) to be allowed to work (and to advance through the career track) for El Al, say, and not have their rights restricted or impinged upon because of their observance of Sabbath or kashrut.

But we are not talking about it, are we? Each time El Al attempts (not out of any moral imperative but because it is draining revenues) to bring practices more in line with other international airlines, there is a religious gun pointed to coalition’s head and, in the nature of these things in Israel, the attempt is abandoned. Yet, the very same individuals pointing that gun are perfectly happy to fly on international airlines and it doesn’t disturb them at the least that the woman at the window seat has (real) milk in her coffee. In other words, this is not about kashrut. It is either about forcing kashrut on secular Israelis or in maintaining the Economic Religious Complex. Or both.

S.O Muffin

Now, Peter the Hungarian, why is El Al supposed to enforce kashrut? This is the whole point which you have avoided.

Avoided?! As I wrote in my previous post El-Al is obliged by law to keep its kashrut because it is owned by the government. I don’t like it either but living in a democracy I have to accept the will of the majority. The El-Al question is really the subject of cheap party politics but even democracy has its flaws. Anyway to complain about a strictly Israeli problem on a British/international website is not exectly helpful. As the Hungarian saying goes its usefulness is identical with giving hot kisses to a cold dead body.

I’m not exactly get the importance of debating about El-Al’s kashrut enforcement. Believe me most customer would detest serving monkey-brains on the flights of BA. Does BA’s refusal to serve it hurt the rights of Chinese gourmands too?

They don’t mix milk and meat in their service because 99% percent of the secular Israelis wouldn’t eat or drink it,

What sort of retard doesn’t drink milk and meat together because they think a giant sky fairy wouldn’t like it? For fuck’s sake!

petethehungarian:

The food on BA is terrible and offends people of all religions and ethnic groups. They don’t discriminate against anyone :-)

What sort of retard doesn’t drink milk and meat together because they think a giant sky fairy wouldn’t like it? For fuck’s sake!

Maybe you didn’t know so I will explain to you a very intriguing fact of life.
You won’t believe me dear M*o*..whatever..
Different people have different dietary traditions and customs.

For example when I see people eating fish ‘n chips dripping with grease I associate to… Let’s leve it alone.

MindTheCrap

They serve nyama choma too?

I think this interview between Rabbi Dovid Grossman of Migdal HaEmek, and Yair Lapid, demonstrates, the way it is possible for mutual regard between the religious and the secular in Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4X-3a8FT90

From a travel forum:

“Out of curiosity, I wonder which airlines serve all halal food onboard, without one has to ask for a specially prepared Muslim meals. For those who are not familiar with the term, ‘halal food’ means food which was prepared according to the Islamic way, meaning it contains no form of alcohol and pig related ingredients, apart from the slaughtering of the animals (chicken/goat/cow) being done by a muslim or a non muslim known as ‘ahlul kitab’.

What I can confirm is of course,
- Malaysia Airlines

And I believe the following airlines from the Middle East are also serving all halal food onboard
- Emirates
- Etihad
- Gulf Air
- Qatar Airways
- Saudi Arabian Airlines”

So why single out ElAl for serving only kosher food?

Hi Israelinurse,

כן מגיע לי מזל טוב!

We called our second daughter Ela. Among other things, I have beautiful memories of driving alone through Emek HaElah, and that was an inspiration.

M*o*r*g*o*t*h :

“They [Hebridians] can go fuck themselves. It is time theists were stopped from trying to shove their bronze-age bullshit down people’s throats.”

The typical respect show by the British politically-correct for other people’s beliefs.

I just want to say that it’s quite amusing that this thread is accompanied by an advert for Domino’s Big Smoky pizza.

No, zkharya.
5 tips to lose stomach fat.

I’m sorry to see yet another of many articles in which Harry’s decides its job is to expose, debate, and magnify every real or presumed flaw in Israel.

It means Toube and his blog have become yet another “as-a-Jew” self-hate outlet.

Needless to say, we’ve not and shall not see any HP artcles concerning the state of weekly closing laws in France, Spain, Germany, Iran, etc.

Fabian, I don’t doubt that’s what you see. A big fat smoky Domino’s pizza is staring at me. A conspiracy between the pizza and diet industries, methinks.

Kilbarry1 Is this guy a REAL secular liberal or is he a secret reactionary cunningly plotting to discredit the liberal agenda?

He is saying that if one wishes to buy pig meat on a Saturday in Raanana, then there should be a shop where pig meat can be bought. If nobody buys the pig meat, either on a Saturday or any other day, then the shop, being a private business, will not stock the pig meat.

It is what is called liberalism whether a Jewish State or not.

If a religious person doesn’t want to buy bacon fine. Nobody forces him

If a religious person doesn’t want to buy on the Sabbath, good luck to him. I don’t force him to buy on the Sabbath. He has no real right to use coalition politics to force others not to buy on a Saturday or conform in any other way with a religion that is not for them, imperative.

PS. IT may come as a surprise, but many Jews without cholesterol problems, like bacon and eggs in the morning. And I would remind everyone that many religious Jews live off the tax money of secular Jews who are offended by any legislation which limits them because of religious imperatives whether Jewish or not.

Secular Jews also mobilise to the IDF. Many, many religious Jews do not.

Democracy simply as majority rule is fascism of the mob. It is this, more than anything that makes countries like Iran not a democracy. If the majority of people on a bus want it segregated, it should still be illegal to have a segregated bus. A mechanism to ensure the basic rights of the minority needs to be in place. In Israel, this mechanism is absent.

Excellent point.

When will Jews learn to wash their dirty linen within the family? Why do they insist upon giving ammunition to anti-Semites?

So why have you chosen to publicly criticise another Jew?

Does El Al offer non kosher meals for goys? That would only be good business and liberal.

I have a simple test for coherence:

Does Gabriel support the banning of the Muslim call to prayer from loudspeakers in every Israel city, Arab, Jewish or mixed? I can’t find a more annoying intromission of religion in the public space than that. Is he? Will he devote a post to this problem? (I remind everyone that the muezzin calls to prayer five times a day, the earliest at 4 AM in the morning.

Somehow I think that he will excuse himself with something like: “I am not an Arab, so I deal with Jewish religious things” or other.

I wonder what would happen if Israel decided to ban the muezzin. I wonder.

I am not aware, Fabian, that you have been woken up by a muezzin call in Rishon le’Zion. Just now, by your very choice, you are living in a city where 30% or so of the population happen to be Muslim. (I will not use your unpleasant gambit toward Gabriel and suggest that, if you don’t like it, you can go back to Argentina. You have every right to be where you are – and so have the Muslims. And you chose to be their neighbour, not the other way around.) When you chose to live in a city with substantial Muslim population than yes, there will be calls of the muezzin. Like there are large parts of Jerusalem which are out-of-bounds to motor traffic on Sabbath and nobody is arguing with that. Tolerance toward all your neighbours, Fabian, is a great virtue. Tolerance only towards your Jewish neighbours is racism.

Muffin, your position is logically incoherent. Shabat: wrong, untolerable. An attack on my liberties. Muezzin: Fine. Tolerance. Nothing to do with me.

In your words, regarding the muezzin, you are putting your head in the sand.

BTW, “tolerance toward all your neighbors”???

When our neighbors play an MP3 of a man screaming in a foreign tongue at 4 AM because of religious reasons???

I think that they are the ones who need to show more tolerance towards us.

No, Fabian, this is rubbish and I would have expected you not to make such a truly stupid remark. Shabbat as such is neither right or wrong. Those who wish to observe it, have every right to do so. Those who don’t, don’t. Likewise, those who wish to attend a Muslim prayer, are welcome to. Those who don’t, don’t.

And those who don’t want to suffer the muezzing what?

BTW, see how easy you turn to insults when you lose the argument, Muffin.

And those who don’t want to suffer the muezzing what?

Live in Rishon L’Zion, not in a mixed neighbourhood of a mixed city.

Exactly like those who don’t like making a detour while driving on Sabbath should move to Ramat Aviv or grit their teeth and drive round Mea Shaarim or Bnei Braq.

Ah, and Mazal Tov, Fabian. Emek ha’Ela is a truly beautiful place and I am sure your daughter will be beautiful as well. מזל טוב!

“Live in Rishon L’Zion, not in a mixed neighbourhood of a mixed city.”

So what is the difference between: “live in Rishon [not in Jerusalem]” and “Live in Canada, not in Israel”?

You are not logically consistent. Why should my Jerusalem friends move out because the Muslims appropiate the public space for religion?

The difference is that Rishon is in Israel, Canada (as far as I am aware) is not. In Israel there are diverse populations: Jews, Muslims, observant, secular… There are parts of Israel where (as long as you don’t wish to marry or divorce) you can live your life in secular bliss (kibbutzim, for one). There are other parts of Israel where you can live your dream Orthodox or frumm life without the state impinging much on this.

As far as I am aware, you moved to Jerusalem, not the other way around. Jerusalem is a mixed city and I would imagine that you knew it before you moved. So, you have to live consistently with your decision and display tolerance toward your neighbours. Inclusive of your Arab neighbours.

Bullshit, Muffin. If you recommend someone to move out from somewhere because you need to compromise with religious people, it is the same where you send him. To Hertzlia pituach or to Austin Texas.

BTW, if I move to Jerusalem, why should I have to accept a man screaming at 4 AM for religious reasons? You defended Gabriel post, but now you have taken the opposite view.

Evidently, you have no qualms opposing Orthodox Jews, but you want to treat Muslims with silk gloves.

That is simply hypocresy.

And zeu ze. Goodnight.

Sorry, last one:

I remind you that Gabriel moved to Raanana. So, according to you, he shouldn’t protest at all. Maybe he should move out to Cesarea. All according to you.

Evidently, you have no qualms opposing Orthodox Jews, but you want to treat Muslims with silk gloves.

Whilst you want to treat Messianic Jews with an iron fist?

That is simply hypocresy.

Yes, Fabian, when you resort simultaneously to offence and to mutilation of the language, you should go to sleep.

This has nothing with treating Muslims with silk gloves. But it is rather grotesque, isn’t? Nobody shouts in your ear. I believe I know the topography of Jerusalem quite well and, unless you’ve joined Hilltop Youth or Emuna (and no, I wouldn’t put it beyond you), it is highly likely that you are separated by at least a kilometre from the nearest muezzin. Given that the sound of their loudspeakers is controlled by city ordnances, your sensitivity to vanishingly low-level “Muslim noises” says more about you than about them.

The situation is simple. You live in a mixed city of religious and secular, Jews, Muslims and Christians. You live there not because anybody transported you there but because of your own volition. You have every right to insist that everybody treats you with respect and doesn’t impose on you religious observance or restrictions of a religious ritual. At the same time you have to respect the rights of others. It isn’t too difficult…

And, incidentally, Raanana is not a religious town. It is mostly secular. It so happens that they have religious parties in the ruling coalition on the city council. Had Gabriel lived in Bnei Braq he would have had no grounds to complain.

Fabian: lots and lots of mazal tov. That’s a beautiful name, and of course also the name of one of Israel’s native trees- very fitting for your little Sabra. I wish you all much happiness….and some sleep now and again!

Jewish secular “liberals” seem to be very similar to the Irish variety i.e. you prove your TOLERANCE by dehumanising the religious enemy.

You work for the Ministry of Truth, right?
This is the exact opposite of the truth. The Israeli religious industry dehumanises non-religious Israelis, in fact spits on their spiritual values, by forcing them to submit to religious bully-boys.

And you chose to be their neighbour, not the other way around

Translation: the Jews are in Israel on sufferance only. The country is actually Arab property as it has been for the last 3000 years, and the Jews as newcomers with no real connection to the place should show proper courtesy towards their hosts’ customs.

I realize that I have come late on this thread, so maybe nobody will read this. Still, I must say something about marriage and religion in Israel and elsewhere.

First, it is not true that in Israel you must marry according to religion. You can inform the Social Security authorities about co-habitation, and from that moment onwards you are married for all intents and purposes including calculation of taxes for a couple, inheritance, and all other practical aspects of marriage.

The only difference is that you are not married according to religion. But this is exactly your choice? Is it not?

In my view marriage is a religious institution. If you don’t like religion, just co-habit as above, and don’t bother about rabbis and priests. If you choose to bother with them, you should abide by their rules. It is your own choice.

The same, by the way, applies to gay marriage. Why should a secular gay person demand a religious insitution to change their beliefs? Be and let be. Though I can see that there may be a problem for a religious gay person. Hmm, I need to think more about this.

I’ve been following this post since yesterday and all I can add is that I’m very dissapointed that Harry’s Place decided to run this piece. It’s trite, internally inconsistent, and has no connection to the subjects usually discussed here.

It’s obvious that the writer’s purpose is to complain about/attack Israel, and he does so in a most ridiculous way. As others have pointed out, if he doesn’t like the fact that the town he lives in does not support the opening of businesses on Shabbat, he is certainly free to live somewhere else. The shops are not obligated to be open to fulfill Gabriel’s desires – what astounding arrogance! And while he does have a debatable point about Orthodox control of government religious practices, that’s not the focus of this piece. What Gabriel is really saying is that Israel is ‘wrong’ because it’s a JEWISH state. And that’s just racist, antisemitic, and wrong.

I just don’t understand why this blog published it. It’s not well-written, doesn’t make a coherent argument, and promulgates racist and anti-semitic views. Not what I expect from Harry’s Place at all.

Anat, you’re correct, but there’s an additional route, no?

Couples can take a day trip to Cyprus, get a civil marriage, and be back in Israel the same day with the civil marriage recognised by the Israeli government.

Lebanese do similarly.

Yeze, I’m not Jewish.

S.O.Muffin, you really should learn to compromise with the religious of your own or other communities.

Meanwhile, back in Canada, how many English moved out of Quebec because of linguistic intolerance (the religion of language)?

Personally, I have no problem with the mu’azzin’s call to prayer. I am surrounded by mosques, all of which seem to come equipped with PAs that would do the main stage at Glastonbury proud. After a bit, you get used to the noise – in fact I generally sleep right through it.

What I do object to is a slovenly or raucous call to prayer, with slurred intonation, no sense of rhythm or the meaning of the words. When it goes wrong, it can sound like a multiple amplification of a thousand mad wolves howling at the moon.

On the other hand, sometimes on the balcony, listening to a good set of mu’azzins calling in turn as the sun rises or sets, in a sort of near round, can be hauntingly beautiful.

The Syrians call well – the Moroccans often have a call that sounds like some sort of air raid siren and is not very nice at all.

Ahhh Yes, The self-absorbed rantings of the nicotine deprived.
“Emergency” Cigarettes!?! (obviously you are contradiction wrapped in a moron.)

I can tell by your style, you plan to be a writer for only the most credible of journalistic mediums. Perhaps you will work for the illustrious National Enquirer or The Sun when you grow up!

Also Gabriel,.. You’re a liar.

What?? Did you really believe, inside your brain, that you could post such obvious superfluous distortions and get away with it?

Lame

Couples can take a day trip to Cyprus, get a civil marriage, and be back in Israel the same day with the civil marriage recognised by the Israeli government.

So that’s all right then, is it? There is no problem, just get married in another country … just travel to another city to buy food … just move house … just go back to where you came from …
And this is supposed to be a progressive blog?
Pathetic.

Jews are what they are Gordon Bennet. Israel is a national reflection of Jewishness.

My hope is that they learn something from the experience of being in the majority and thus the ruling power in a democracy.

Gordon

So that’s all right then, is it? There is no problem, just get married in another country

But you have little to say about the exact same Lebanese practise? Are you aware that imposing double standards on Jews is – yes – anti-Semitism?

Further, have you had anything to say of late about the trappings of religion in the UK government?

Some Jewish bloke once said something about the beam in your eye ….

Escae Velocity

Nothing particularly high minded or universalist about most Jews (Leftist) positions in the US. That ruse has been exposed. Naked self interest. The funny thing is that Israel is exposing Jewish hypocrisy, as they advocate different policies for the Israel and European Christian nations.

Has nobody responded to this bit of naked anti-Semitism from EV?

To Whom It May Concern(Nut Jobs in Israel): The arguments and suggestions that are suggested to help Gabriel resolve his Shabbat issues are completely nonsensical!! “Gabe should get a used car”, “Gabe should ask his neighbor for milk” Why is everyone providing suggestions for Gabe to circumvent the current laws as opposed to allowing him and millions of other Israeli’s to decide for themselves?? Let business decide for itself and then the Israeli Public can vote with their pocketbooks.

To all the benevolent(sarcasm) Israeli’s: Its very kind of you to be so concerned about the poor Israeli blue collar worker. I too am concerned about the long hours and crappy wages paid. Lets all band together and raise minimum wage to level where a person can actually afford to live above the poverty level.

A special note about my favorite group the ” The Haredi”.
They decided to protest Intel on Sabbath by being violent on the supposed day of rest. Haredi unemployment rate 62%, maybe what they are scared of is that the rest of Israeli population will wake up and decide not to give social welfare to their lazy, socially akward and inept human beings I have ever had the displeasure of meeting.