Harry's Place

I am impressed anyone would read through so many Chabbad publications to see what the Frummies are up to.

But I can help feeling lucky to be at the birth of something interesting. It is not every day that a new Messaniac sects spins off. I am not sure if I hope it is more like that nice young Jesus or more like Muhammed. But I expect it will turn out to be more like Sabbatai Zevi.

Just watching that video clip raised a question, If the Bevis Mark Synagogue sacked their Rabbi, Nathan Asmoucha, for allowing an interfaith demonstration against high bank interest rates, imagine the scandal if hundreds of Christian men forcefully invaded a shul service singing Onward Christian Soldiers? It would not go down well and would deserve to be condemed in strong terms, as does this invasion of a place of worship

Considering the number of messianic-related articles posted here lately I suggest changing the address of this site to “www.hurryupmoshiach.org”.

Isn’t that url already used by Chabad ;-)

Why should we, who care about human rights, be interested in the fact that you believe your religion to be similar to theirs? Would it be better if the Rabbi Deri confined his alleged attacks to Buddhists or Hindus?

No attacking at all would make the world a better place Joe in Australia!

“Artovsky, a former Russian policeman, has also boasted of spying on Messianic Jews who believe in Yeshua”

How very sad.

so much for subtlety, I have a copy of G Scholem’s definitive biography of Zevi that I picked up recently. I am looking forward to getting round to reading it one of these days, he had such a fascinating tragic life. It’s quite an incredible story.

“And, in disagreement about who’s really the Messiah, there’s no need for violence or intimidation of any sort.”

Correct. Of course, the attraction to some is the excuse for violence. ‘So, this God of yours wants you to knock people about, as a kindness?’

No attacking at all would make the world a better place Joe in Australia!

Yes, Gev, that’s my point. All this banging on about why this group or that group is “really” similar to Christianity is just special pleading. It has no place in an argument for equality and I view it with contempt.

All this banging on about why this group or that group is “really” similar to Christianity is just special pleading. It has no place in an argument for equality and I view it with contempt.

Great! So you’ll join our call for fair play towards Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus?

Yeze

‘And, in disagreement about who’s really the Messiah, there’s no need for violence or intimidation of any sort.’

This says it all, really. It’s disappointing to many of Israel’s friends that cherished freedoms, for instance the freedom to assemble peacefully, the freedom to believe what others don’t, the right to proselytise to adults – all of which are enshrined in Israeli law – aren’t applied and enforced equally by the Israeli authorities.

Very disappointing indeed.

Whatever the word is that means ‘totally irrelevant to almost everybody’ this post is that times 100.

Greg, this may not be your primary area of interest but is the abuse of some people’s religious freedom of conscience so totally irrelvant to you? BTW, how do you know that you speak for almost everybody!?

You want fair play, Yeze? Stop deceiving your readers, then.

First – Chabad are jews proselytising among jews, and unlike christians they don’t claim that being a jew is a sure path to eternal damnation. Please don’t forget to mention that, in order to have our souls saved, we actually must cease being jews, and this is what your missionaries aim at.

Second – jews don’t believe in a divine messiah, and no matter how hard you try, your Jesus will never be the Son of David or Son of Joseph jews are waiting for. Your claim that Chabad followers believe in a divine messiah is a dishonest attempt to prove that they are more like you, and if jews accept them they must accept you too.

Third – “The Campaign for Moshiach Consciousness’ Moshiach blog speaks about “a new theology for a new Torah” brought by the Rebbe, sounding suspiciously similar to the writer of Hebrews”. Nothing “non-jewish” about that – read some Kabbalah.

That’s all for now.

I agree with Greg. Why is this post even here? This is a British blog allegedly about social issues and human rights. Why the constant focus on small, nit-picky matters in Israel which don’t come under the rubric of what this blog is all about? (I realize that these matters aren’t ’small’ in Israel and they would be appropriate for a blog about Israeli religious issues, but this is a British blog allegedly about larger human rights and political issues). Or does Harry’s Place now include Israel-bashing as a ‘human rights’ agenda?

There is a real double standard here and a focus on Israel’s alleged ‘flaws’ that is very disturbing. Why not write about large, much more violent religious riots that have killed hundreds of people rather than this relatively small incident? Oh, because those other riots that kill hundreds aren’t in ISRAEL, and it’s much more important to keep the focus on Israel’s flaws rather than much worse problems elsewhere.

I am truly disgusted by this. I’ve written to Harry’s Place about what I feel has become a real problem of anti-semitism on the part of the editors of this blog (harryblog@gmail.com), and I urge others to do the same.

Great article. About time this was discussed. Why should Jew’s who follower Yeshua be treated different from those who follow Menachem Schneerson?

Boker Tov, Levitt ! Check how many articles on this topic have been posted in the last few weeks. There was an interesting discussion the first time but nobody has anything original to add. Will there be a new thread every time there is a minor development in this story in Israel? What are the editors of this site trying to prove?

@HappyandProud: antisemitism, are you kidding me? Have you missed the numerous posts on HP about jihadist suicide bombings, etc?

@HappyandProud: antisemitism, are you kidding me? Have you missed the numerous posts on HP about jihadist suicide bombings, etc?

@HappyandProud: antisemitism, are you kidding me? Have you missed the numerous posts on HP about jihadist suicide bombings, etc?

“Why should Jew’s who follower Yeshua be treated different from those who follow Menachem Schneerson?”

The same reason Christian Jews treat rabbinic and Talmudic Judalsm as the inauthentic continuity of the spirit of ancient Israel? The same reason they treat gentile Christians as a more authentic expression of it?

Happy and Proud you just hate Messianic Jews more than you love Israel.

HP covers issues all over the world, why do you feel the need to geographically limit its scope when it deals with an issue you don’t like!

sorry for triplicate comment

It isn’t so much a question of relevance for most of us. It’s a question of comprehensibility. Take this:

At our shul there are all kinds of people, including Mizrachi and every one of them knows who Moshiach is and how to sing Yechi. They hear it from me in shiurim and at farbrengens and understand that it’s something true and ‘alive.’

I have no idea what any of that is supposed to mean. So, when Gev asks Greg “is the abuse of some people’s religious freedom of conscience so totally irrelvant to you?”, that isn’t really the problem.

George, fair enough if it is a point about understanding terminology. However the wonders of Google quickly sheds light on the most obscure of words.

Gev, there is the issue of terminology. And it’s true that I could google the terms used but there’s also the wider issue of whether this is necessarily the place to go into pretty arcane theological matters. If the issue is religious freedom, then that’s the issue. I just don’t need that much detail.

Greg presents the argument that a blog that focuses on the abuse of minority groups shouldn’t mention abuses against minorities as only a minority of blog readers belong to that minority.

Unconvincing, to say the least.

. There was an interesting discussion the first time but nobody has anything original to add. Will there be a new thread every time there is a minor development in this story in Israel? What are the editors of this site trying to prove?

So why haven’t you complained about articles on Islamophobia or anti-Semitism? People don’t always have anything new or exciting to say about them either, it doesn’t mean these stories shouldn’t be covered.

I am truly disgusted by this. I’ve written to Harry’s Place about what I feel has become a real problem of anti-semitism on the part of the editors of this blog (harryblog@gmail.com), and I urge others to do the same.

LOL!

Ok, this was one Messianic post too many. Bye bye Harry’s Place. I am gone for good. You gave me the reason I was looking for. More time for my studies. Win win.

Sorry, haredim dedicated to Schneerson never put Jews in gas chambers. Christians did. And Messianic Jews are Christians.

Israel should expel all Messianic Jews and be done with it.

This happens to be of some interest to me personally. But it doesn’t belong on Harry’s Place!!!!

ToubeTheAntiSemite: nice to see of the moderate and lovers of liberty coming out to play!

Not as if you are steorptyping anyone is it! Many Messianic Jews died in the Holocaust too, you saying they committed suidice then?

“Sorry, haredim dedicated to Schneerson never put Jews in gas chambers. Christians did. And Messianic Jews are Christians.

Israel should expel all Messianic Jews and be done with it.”

Surely according to that logic you should be calling on Isreal to expel all Christians?

Liberty, if it means anything, means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear, UNLESS it’s something about Messianic Jews, eh Fabian?

Sheese. Jews all in a dither with each other as if we don’t have really, really serious problems to confront?

Oh well what else is new.

Meanwhile I read a NYT piece last night about tuna – TUNA – on the verge of extinction.

The oceans are dying and we are worried about various interpretations of Hurry Up Mosiach?

Freddie

Not all Christians in Israel create a problem. Nor do “ordinary” Christians represent a draining of an oppressed people’s energies.

Many Messianic Jews died in the Holocaust too

So? Roma died as well. That doesn’t mean Israel should host them.

How many Roma are Israeli citizens?

Messianic Jew is a contradiction in terms. You simply cannot believe in Jesus and call yourself Jewish. In Judaism, Gd does not have a human form.

In the interests of balance and fairness, I suggest you post an alternative viewpoint. I’m sure there’s plenty of Jews who can provide some interesting facts on these groups which you’re not reporting.

Happy and Proud – a bit of support for you.

I’ll email the blog as well. I, and the overwhelming majority of practising and non-practising Jews in the world, have NO interest in so-called Messianic Jews or Jews for Jesus except when they try to convert us. Why this blog posts repeated artcles from this bloke I have no idea.

Great! So you’ll join our call for fair play towards Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus?

Yes, absolutely. You should be secure in your persons and enjoy the same freedoms as, for example, Buddhists and Hindus. Are you looking for something more than this? Do you want to enjoy some sort of religious privilege over them?

You should be secure in your persons and enjoy the same freedoms as, for example, Buddhists and Hindus. Are you looking for something more than this? Do you want to enjoy some sort of religious privilege over them?

Not at all, that’s fine.

I, and the overwhelming majority of practising and non-practising Jews in the world, have NO interest in so-called Messianic Jews or Jews for Jesus except when they try to convert us. Why this blog posts repeated artcles from this bloke I have no idea.

Adam, are you a parody?

In the interests of balance and fairness, I suggest you post an alternative viewpoint

Alternative viewpoint to what? Messianic Jews deserve to be spied on and have their services disrupted, you mean?

Firstly, no one should behave violently towards mesianics.

Secondly, if you succeed in convincing Jews that all Chabadniks are equivalent to messianics you will only achieve the expulsion of Chabad from the Jewish community, you will never achieve recognition of your non-Jewish beliefs as Jewish.

Jews and Christians can and do live alongside each other very peacefully and successfully, neither angering the other, neither trying to deceive the other. Mesianics could well learn that lesson and stop trying to deceive ignorant Jews that a belief in Jesus, or a Christian concept of a divine messiah, or the vicarious atonement of Jesus etc is somehow in tune or compatible with Judaism. Deceit angers.

Mesianic Jews, are Christians and through the embracing of another faith, have separated themselves from the Jewish community.

It is quite ironic that Harry’s Place, which often takes up the battle to defend Israel and the Jews from those who would destroy them, serves as a platform for a movement which if successful would achieve what forced conversions, auto de fe’s and disputations never could.

Mesianics could well learn that lesson and stop trying to deceive ignorant Jews that a belief in Jesus, or a Christian concept of a divine messiah, or the vicarious atonement of Jesus etc is somehow in tune or compatible with Judaism. Deceit angers.

OK. But we’re saying Messianic Jews, whatever you think about our faith, have the right to practise it. You draw your own conclusions about our beliefs.

It is quite ironic that Harry’s Place, which often takes up the battle to defend Israel and the Jews from those who would destroy them, serves as a platform for a movement which if successful would achieve what forced conversions, auto de fe’s and disputations never could.

Autos de fe were often used against Jewish Christians rather than by them – we’re not suicidal.

Gev, Your comment is ridiculous. You could say that about ANY article about Israel that you don’t agree with. The issue I am talking about is whether this article is relevant to Harry’s Place and if it’s not (which I believe), why is it here? (By the way, your ad hominum attack on me is both snide and wrong. You’ve never met me and have no idea of my religion, gender, or anything else about me. So how can you presume to know what I think)

In case you haven’t realized, one common ploy of anti-semites is to attack Israel for everything and anything they possibly can, while ignoring much more pressing matters of the same type elsewhere. I’m not saying HP is anti-semitic – and no KevinI haven’t missed the articles to which you refer – I’m asking why this and other articles (ie. Gabriel’s) criticizing Israel for relatively small and obscure matters are in HP. The focus of these articles is not consistent with the seriousness that important topics deserve. As another poster asked, if you’re going to discuss freedom of religion, why use this complicated and relatively trivial matter as an example? And why are the examples from Israel? (see Gabriel’s post). This doesn’t seem typical of HP to me, especially because the articles are poorly written and argued, which is no typical of HP either.

So are you suggesting I should keep my mouth shut and not bring up my concerns? Who’s against ‘freedom of expression’ now? And Yeze, why do you call Adam’s concern about the direction of the blog a ‘parody’? Please explain, because this is a serious question and deserves to be taken seriously. You really look stupid when you denigrate something just because you don’t unerstand it.

Yeze, why do you call Adam’s concern about the direction of the blog a ‘parody’? Please explain, because this is a serious question and deserves to be taken seriously

Because Adam says he only cares about Messianic Jews when they’re missionising. Exact words:

“I, and the overwhelming majority of practising and non-practising Jews in the world, have NO interest in so-called Messianic Jews or Jews for Jesus except when they try to convert us.”

So he cares when it affects him but not when it inconveniences other people? That shows precisely why it’s important to highlight these abuses.

So are you suggesting I should keep my mouth shut and not bring up my concerns? Who’s against ‘freedom of expression’ now?

Nah, go for it, evangelise away.

The focus of these articles is not consistent with the seriousness that important topics deserve.

What’s important and what isn’t? You tell me I’m interested.

Thanks Fran.

Yeze, I’ll make this short because your past comments make it clear that you are obnoxious, fail to respect others, and don’t listen or read very carefully.

The reason that “missionary jews” (an oxymoron if there ever was one) aren’t important unless they try to try to convert others is because until they open their mouths to start the converting, no one is aware of them. The problem isn’t their religion, it’s the fact that they are trying to convert others to their religion, and their religion is one that has for many centuries caused a great amount of harm to the Jewish community and is responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews. Can you understand that?

When you tell me to “evangelise away”, not does it show that you can’t spell, but you seem to be confused about my point. I am not trying to ‘convert’ anyone. I am free to state my point of view as are others. If you don’t like it that’s too bad, but I don’t appreciate you trying to ’shut me up’ with gratuitous insults and misrepresentations.

In terms of what is ‘important’, I believe that freedom of religion is an important topic. (You may disagree, but since you’re writing here you probably don’t). I believe, as the poster I cited above said, that in discussing important topics it’s best to use examples that have far-ranging consequences, not examples that have little import or affect only a very small number of people.

So the question remains – why was this example chosen, and why is so much emphasis being put on it by HP? Why the focus on Israel, when instances in other nations have much broader and far-reaching consequences?

It’s a legitimate question which deserves serious discussion, not scorn. If you don’t like the question you are free to ignore it, but putting down something you don’t like certainly doesn’t make you seem like someone who truly believes in freedom of speech.

Now please go find something else to do. I’m tired of responding to your silly attempts to look sophisticated.

I believe, as the poster I cited above said, that in discussing important topics it’s best to use examples that have far-ranging consequences, not examples that have little import or affect only a very small number of people
[...]
So the question remains – why was this example chosen, and why is so much emphasis being put on it by HP? Why the focus on Israel, when instances in other nations have much broader and far-reaching consequences?

There’s hundreds of posts about antisemitism and anti-Zionism – imagine if people said there are less Jews than Muslims so these posts are irrevelant. You must see the logical fallacy there?

Now please go find something else to do. I’m tired of responding to your silly attempts to look sophisticated.

And no-one asked you to. I’ll carry on doing what I like thanks, and so can you!

I am not trying to ‘convert’ anyone. I am free to state my point of view as are others. If you don’t like it that’s too bad, but I don’t appreciate you trying to ’shut me up’ with gratuitous insults and misrepresentations.

Ditto.

Like mendel, the topic of the messianism in Chabad is of particular interest to me. But why such an esoteric topic is getting so many repeated and repetitive posts here at HP, with micro-esoteric developments in each post, is baffling me as well.

Amie, the Rebbe only knows…

Oh, I do so like being patronised.
no, I’m not a parody. at least, not so much a parody as the mental gymnastics of people who are Jewish who have become Christians trying to tell us that they are still practising Judaism. Quite remarkable actually. Well done.

“I am not trying to ‘convert’ anyone. I am free to state my point of view as are others. If you don’t like it that’s too bad, but I don’t appreciate you trying to ’shut me up’ with gratuitous insults and misrepresentations.

Ditto.”

Oh yes you are. It is the whole point of your religion.

And I stand by my original post: I do not want anyone to be attacked but have no interest in your religion EVER. I do, however, actively oppose any attempts by your lot to convert Jews.

Happy and Proud wrote, There is a real double standard here and a focus on Israel’s alleged ‘flaws’ that is very disturbing. … I’ve written to Harry’s Place about what I feel has become a real problem of anti-semitism on the part of the editors of this blog (harryblog@gmail.com), and I urge others to do the same.

I agree with Happy. Such hyper-scrutiny is far beyond normal and is a form of bigotry.

Oh yes you are.

Oh no I’m not!

Such hyper-scrutiny is far beyond normal and is a form of bigotry.

Rather than an email campaign, why not take on the facts and give your own perspective? It would be far more constructive, surely.

In the interests of balance and fairness, I suggest you post an alternative viewpoint
—-
Alternative viewpoint to what? Messianic Jews deserve to be spied on and have their services disrupted, you mean?
—-

Well here’s some questions:

What’s Jewish about believing in Jesus?
Why is JFJ a front group for some Christians?
Why do JFJ so actively try and convert Jews?

And here’s some food for thought:
http://www.cultnews.com/?cat=75

Messianic “Jews” are as Jewish in their beliefs as the “Church” of Scientology is Christian.

Rick Ross? The same guy who went to China to help the authorities crack down on the Falun Gong? You sure you wanna link to him?

Anyway:

Reportedly missionaries are expected to follow-up the DVD delivered by making personal visits, dressed up to look like members of the ultra-Orthodox communities.

If true, dressing up like a rabbi sounds downright silly to me, and I doubt that’s going to convince anyone of JFJ’s message.

However I can’t claim to speak for them – I don’t work for Jews for Jesus any more than you work for Yad L’Achim.

ToubeTheAntiSemite – “Sorry, haredim dedicated to Schneerson never put Jews in gas chambers. Christians did. And Messianic Jews are Christians.”

Christians didn’t crucify Jesus. Jews did. You want to follow this argument for a little while to see where it leads?

India shares a border with Afghanistan

Not since independence and partition in 1947.

Gev and Yeze – if you think that this article is a good attempt to draw non-Messianic Jews into the debate you are sorely mistaken. It’s written from the perspective of a fucking smart-arse. Using lots of Jewishy sounding words doesn’t make you Jewish, you know.

Using lots of Jewishy sounding words doesn’t make you Jewish, you know.

I think you’ve missed the point. It wasn’t us using these words but the Chabad missionaries. Go take it up with them.

I don’t think these Messianic Jews should be discriminated against, anywhere, any more than any other group with a religious belief. That being said, why is such a tiny group getting so much press here at HP. It’s starting to look like somebody at the top has an agenda, because this topic is only of extremely tangential interest to all but the very few. I know I’ve certainly had my fill, and there are more significant things to think about.

Balance: Why is JFJ a front group for some Christians?

They are the most in-your-face, up front, controvertial missionary group out there, hardly a front for some secretive agenda as their title makes is quite clear what they are all about!!!

The fact is here has been an upsurge in violence against Messianic Jews in recent years in Israel and we want Israelis who follow Jesus to have as much freedom as those who don’t.

Rabbi’s book says Jews can kill gentiles
November 9, 2009
JERUSALEM (JTA) — A West Bank rabbi has written a book that says Jews can kill non-Jews who threaten Israel.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira of the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar released the book Monday…

“The King’s Torah” was released shortly after the announcement of the arrest of an alleged Jewish terrorist who admitted to killing Palestinians and attacks on messianic Jews and left-wing Jews.

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/11/09/1009034/rabbis-book-says-jews-can-kill-gentiles

Not too long after Rabin was branded as a “rodef” [someone you can kill without breaking the command not to murder] he was murdered by Yigal Amir.

The rhetoric against Messianic Jews needs taking down a notch or two!

This may be a minority concern, but let us at least have the right to express it.

I think it will be interesting to see whether the Lubbavitchers remain within the “Jewish family” so to speak. All religions have to police their borders otherwise they become Hindus (or probably more accurately Chinese Folk Religionists). They tolerate anything. Clearly that did not apply to Jews and Christians back in the day and they went their separate ways. Nor did it apply to Jews and Samaritans. The Karaites were touch and go – I believe the Rabbis did not want the Law of Return to apply to them. But on the other hand things are less touchy now. Liberal and Reform Jews are more or less Jews even though the differences between them and the Conservative Jewish communities are probably bigger than with the Karaites.

But the interesting one are the Chabad. Which people tend to think of now as more Jewish than most Jews. But they are an early modern innovation and could easily have caused a split. Instead the definition of who was a Jew changed. If all Jews became Messianic no doubt they would change the definition of a Jew again. But can they expand it slightly and keep the Lubbavitch on board? Interesting, if slow, times. At least no one has been stoned yet.

I think it will be interesting to see whether the Lubbavitchers remain within the “Jewish family” so to speak.

Yeze is using equivocation to mischaracterise the Lubavitchers, just as he mischaracterised the Jews of Yemen earlier. In that post his argument was essentially “The Yemenites mentioned Maimonides in prayer. Christians mention Jesus in prayer. Therefore, the Yemenites were like Christians!” As I pointed out at the time, the Yemenites were praying for the welfare of Maimonides; Christians pray to Jesus. The two things are entirely contrary to each other and nobody could honestly confuse them. He’s pulling a similar trick with the Lubavitchers, but I’m not interested in arguing theology on this blog. I can see that I’m not alone in this respect.

It saddens me that Harry’s Place thinks it right and proper to allow an anti-Jewish protelysing group spokesperson to have a free ride on its blog. Why is this group any different from any other Christian Missionary group which I presume would be banned from peddling its wares here? As such this post should have no relevance to a political blog which I thought this was, obviously I was mistaken.

YoussiK

“Mesianic Jews, are Christians and through the embracing of another faith, have separated themselves from the orthodox Jewish community.” I have added the word ‘orthodox’.

I thought the article started with a terroristic disruption of a a M. Jewish service. Those who support Israel should for that very reason keep an eye on such unworthy violence and injustice. This is one of the most relevant posts on HP. That it should lead to commenters saying that the HP moderators have become antisemitic is a sign of sheer lunacy. HP sometimes treats subjects that are really ‘irrelevant’ for light relief, I think.

If I discerned the babble on the video correctly, I believe everyone was speaking Hebrew.

Leave the Messianic Jews to themselves. If one of them tries to persuade you, either say ‘no’ immediately or use your own brain to argue civilly with them. I don’t think there is any danger of them becoming the main relgion in Israel. You say they might catch ’stupid Jews’; from your point of view you can hardly want stupid Jews in your orthodox fold.

Remember, persecution often leads to the spread of a faith.

I take Yeve’s religion seriously – to be honest I find it quite fascinating – but there is no danger of my becoming an adherent (which, paradoxically, I probably can’t, not being Jewish). I am not so weak as not to have my own mind.

I think David T should get the Nobel Prise for tolerance.

Felix,

I am more than prepared to “Leave the Messianic Jews to themselves”, as are the majority of Jews, Orthodox or not. It would be nice however if these Mesianics would kindly leave us to ourselves.

There is no strife between Jews and the Christians in our communities. Jews as a rule do not protest outside your local Anglican, Catholic or Orthodox church. These groups of course do not devote a great deal of their time to converting Jews, and even those who do, they tend to approach you with honesty. They are Christians, openly so, and they invite you to embrace Christianity, and they respect your wish not to be so embraced.

Mesianics, wrap themselves up in the mantle of Judaism, in a deliberate bid to entice and trick Jews into believing that Christian dogma is compatible with Judaism, which it certainly is not.

If individual Jews wish to be Christians, while that saddens me, they are free to do so, in the UK and Israel. I am sure in Israel there are Catholics, Protesants and Orthodox Christians, of Jewish origin, who live out their lives peacefully and happily with no aggravation.

“You say they might catch ’stupid Jews’; from your point of view you can hardly want stupid Jews in your orthodox fold.”

All Jews, simple minded or geniuses are part of the same covenant. Most of us are not blessed with the intellects of the great savants. Does this mean we should be preyed upon by the unscrupulous?

Many elderly and vulnerable people fall victim to fraudsters who ring them up masquerading as their bank, should we do nothing to protect them against those who are after their money on the grounds that they might not be as “on the ball” as others? Likewise why should Jews sit quietly and allow another group of fraudsters from preying on Jews who know little of their sacred heritage, by masquerading their faith as Judaism?

YossiUK: Why do Messianic Jews continuing to celebrate their culture and identity automatically have to be “a deliberate bid to entice and trick” anyone, can’t you consider that the majority are following their own convictions? This image of all Messianic Jews as terrible decievers and fraudsters who “prey” upon people like dangerous animals, is exactly the kind of hysterical language that has wound up the situation in Israel.

A test of a true democracy is how it copes with its minority faith groups, especially the ones that annoy the majority culture. It seems that a few people just want to gag Messianic Jews by any means possible, including having a hissy fit that HP dares to allow freedom of expression for such a hated and misunderstood minority on a blog dedicated to telling people what they don’t want to hear.

Gev,

That there may well be Jews who while practising Christianity wish to retain their culture and identity, and who have no wish to promote the false idea that fundamental Christian dogma is compatible with Judaism, a large majority in my personal experience do have the intent to draw into their circle other Jews, and deliberately use external Jewish symbolism as a way of attracting Jews, and making the embracing of Christianity more palatable.

You and I both know this is the case.

Non-Messianic Christian Jews, generally affiliate themselves with one of the standard Christian Churches, and do not belong to messianic congregations. And I can honestly say I have yet to meet a member of a messianic congregation, who did not attempt a theological masquerade.

Speaking as a Gentile Christian, this article – and the replies to it – provide powerful and compelling evidence for why Christians should be active and vocal in their opposition to the BNP.

To that end, this article – together with the replies – are extremely valuable in highlighting the attitudes and prejudices Messianic Jews face not just in Israel but around the world.

For Christians who are familiar with the Old and New Testament, it will be self-evident why someone who is born a Jew does not stop being Jewish if they recognise Yeshuah as the promised Messiah. That’s the whole point of the bible: the more radical concept was that the gospel message was also to be made available to the Gentiles.

Rachel,

Imagine if you will a group of people, who believe that Jesus was reborn in the figure of the Hindu god Krishna. And that Krishna is G-d/Jesus.

Then imagine that these people teach that Jesus’ death did not by itself bring about the salvation from sin, but that a belief in Krishna together with a belief in Jesus’ death brings about Salvation.

Then imagine that these people who believe in Karma, reincarnation, and the worship of the incarnations of Jesus in the forms of many deities, called their houses of worship churches, and who dedicated themselves and huge sums on money to converting Christians. Who targeted huge sums of money to evangelise on college campuses.

Imagine that these people appropriated the name Christian to refer to themselves and taught that the only way to be a fulfilled Christian or true Christian was to embrace their theology.

Would Christians be happy about this? The majority would not be.

As an example, in my local area the churches (Anglican, Catholic, and an assortment of Protestant churches) have a charity bike ride to raise money for the upkeep of churches. They specifically exclude Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses from taking part as they do not hold them to be Christian. Imagine what their opinion of my theoretical Hindu/Christian hybrid would be.

Messianic Christians (not traditional mainstream Christians) are a true version of my theoretical example. A Christian/Jewish hybrid. Who’s theology is completely contrary to Judaism (and perhaps Christianity).

I understand and respect the fact that you, as a Christian, interpret the Bible differently than me. And that you honestly understand it to teach what your Christian faith teaches you. And despite the fact that both our faiths differ on significant fundamental elements, we can find common ground on many issues.

Please let us not make a Jewish disagreement with Messianic Christianity, become an argument between Jews and traditional Christians.

‘Messianic Christians (not traditional mainstream Christians) are a true version of my theoretical example. A Christian/Jewish hybrid. Who’s theology is completely contrary to Judaism…’

no more so than Chabad

‘… (and perhaps Christianity).’

Er, weren’t all the first followers of Jesus identifiable Jews?

“‘… (and perhaps Christianity).’

Er, weren’t all the first followers of Jesus identifiable Jews?”

The Church Fathers, those who decided what Christian belief should be, and those who decided which books should be included in the New Testament, where quite clear. Christians, whether of Jewish or Gentile origins, should not observe Jewish religious practices.

The overwhelming majority of Chabadniks reject the messianic aspects that a minority possess. And as I have made clear, I and the overwhelming majority of Orthodox Jews reject utterly, the messianic beliefs (which by the by are not the same as Christian dogma) of some in Chabad.

‘The Church Fathers, those who decided what Christian belief should be, and those who decided which books should be included in the New Testament, where quite clear. Christians, whether of Jewish or Gentile origins, should not observe Jewish religious practices.’

But the authors of the NT clearly did, i.e. the church fathers departed from their own foundational documents!

“But the authors of the NT clearly did, i.e. the church fathers departed from their own foundational documents!”

They themselves compiled the NT, and effectively shaped the theology of Christianity. So if they departed from the documents as you say, what does that say about Christianity as a whole?

Secondly, it has been argued that Paul himself in his letters is less than pleased with the insistence by some Jewish Christians in retaining the practices of Judaism.

The point I am making is that Messianic Christianity, in the modern sense, is totally outside the bounds of Judaism, and that there are strong traditional Christian grounds for being displeased with it too.

Alas, I wrote a reply to YoussiK and others and lost it. By this evening this thread will have disappeared.

Yeve, I looked at your site because I want to know more what your religion is about. I couldn’t find any summary or essay – maybe I missed a link – about your religion, but I see there are contact addresses there.

I don’t adhere to any religious creed so I can observe them all without getting into s state to defend one against the other.

Hi Felix, to be honest I can’t find a succinct definition that I’m fully comfortable with.

Wikipedia is a good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

My own feelings are that Messianic Jews are part of global Christianity (the body of Messiah), and whilst I like judaica and Hebrew prayers and worship songs, our religion isn’t Judaism per se as modern day Judaism explicitly rejects the messiahship of Jesus.

In that sense I may differ from other Messianic Jews who do see themselves as part of Judaism. There are different opinions on this though.

‘“But the authors of the NT clearly did, i.e. the church fathers departed from their own foundational documents!”

They themselves compiled the NT, and effectively shaped the theology of Christianity. So if they departed from the documents as you say, what does that say about Christianity as a whole?”

Sorry, should have made myself clearer. By “the authors of the NT” I mean the actual writers of the NT (almost all of whom were Jewish, of course). By “the church fathers” I mean later (Gentile) Christians such as Justin Martyr and John Chrysostom, whose anti-Judaic/anti-Semitic teachings are completely at variance with any fair reading of the NT.

“Secondly, it has been argued that Paul himself in his letters is less than pleased with the insistence by some Jewish Christians in retaining the practices of Judaism.”

That’s not my understanding of Paul – his letters oppose Gentile Christians adopting Jewish practices, but in the book of Acts we see Paul taking an active role in preserving Jewish identity (Acts 21 if you want a reference). I cannot see anywhere in the NT where Paul opposes Jewish Christians retaining Jewish practices.
‘

This might not be the best forum to have an in-depth discussion of the origins of Christian theology, a hugely contested topic, but I personally would put a question mark on the Jewishness of the NT writers. Could some of those Greek language books have had Aramaic/Hebrew predecesors which might have been written by Jews? Perhaps. I shall leave that to historians to battle over.

But what about the other Christian scriptures that where not included by the Church fathers in the NT, that often contradict standard Christian theology. Perhaps they were correct examples of Christianity and the church fathers who you suggest may have got it wrong over Christians and Jewish ritual, may have got it wrong about that too?

Paul himself writes bitterly against Torah observance, and in terms that signifies that he views Torah observance in general as detrimental.

It is easy for us nearly 2000 years later to debate exactly what he had in mind when he wrote what he wrote, but it is fair to say that those living very soon after Paul’s death took his teachings as evidence that no Christian, Jew or Gentile, should observe Jewish practice. For example Ignatius of Antioch who lived either at the time of Paul or shortly after around the year 100 was very very clear when he said, “It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.”

And the councils that came after him, councils that created the creeds by which Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and others live their lives, expressly forbid the observance of Jewish practice to all Christians. And for this reason Christians, for the overwhelming majority of historical time, including Christians of Jewish origin, did not maintain Jewish practice.

At the end of the day, this is a discussion which is best suited between Christians and Messianics. The only reason I mentioned it, is to demonstrate that the issue is not simply one that should concern Jews, but that it has important theological ramifications for Christians too.

Yeze, forgive me for asking, but having read your definition of your faith, would you if asked describe yourself as a Christian, or a Messianic Jew?

This might not be the best forum to have an in-depth discussion of the origins of Christian theology, a hugely contested topic, but I personally would put a question mark on the Jewishness of the NT writers. Could some of those Greek language books have had Aramaic/Hebrew predecessors which might have been written by Jews? Perhaps. I shall leave that to historians to battle over.

But what about the other Christian scriptures that where not included by the Church fathers in the NT, that often contradict standard Christian theology. Perhaps they were correct examples of Christianity and the church fathers who you suggest may have got it wrong over Christians and Jewish ritual, may have got it wrong about that too?

Paul himself writes bitterly against Torah observance, and in terms that signifies that he views Torah observance in general as detrimental.

It is easy for us nearly 2000 years later to debate exactly what he had in mind when he wrote what he wrote, but it is fair to say that those living very soon after Paul’s death took his teachings as evidence that no Christian, Jew or Gentile, should observe Jewish practice. For example Ignatius of Antioch who lived either at the time of Paul or shortly after around the year 100 was very very clear when he said, “It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.”

And the councils that came after him, councils that created the creeds by which Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and others live their lives, expressly forbid the observance of Jewish practice to all Christians. And for this reason Christians, for the overwhelming majority of historical time, including Christians of Jewish origin, did not maintain Jewish practice.

At the end of the day, this is a discussion which is best suited between Christians and Messianics. The only reason I mentioned it, is to demonstrate that the issue is not simply one that should concern Jews, but that it has important theological ramifications for Christians too.

Yeze, forgive me for asking, but having read your definition of your faith, would you if asked describe yourself as a Christian, or a Messianic Jew?

“Paul himself writes bitterly against Torah observance, and in terms that signifies that he views Torah observance in general as detrimental.” Sorry, but where?

oops excuse the repetition.

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law”

This can’t refer to Gentiles as they where not obligated by the law.

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”

“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”

“But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (the law).”

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

A classic reason given by the church fathers for opposing Jewish practice by all Christians, is that it would emphasise Jew and Greek, when as Paul taught, there would be no Jew or Greek.

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage”

And many more examples can be brought.

Now I’m sure that you will understand these verses in ways that differ from me, but please remember the earliest Christians those who agreed with Paul and the minority that disagreed with him, all understood these passages, and his approach in general, to mean that Christians should stay away from Jewish observance.

YossiUK- I suspect we’ll need to agree to disagree, but briefly:
- most of the references you’ve given refer to the use of the law as a means of attaining salvation, which Paul teaches is not the case (and proves it from the OT). They don’t rule out Jewish Christians retaining an OT culture which was given by God.
- “no Jew or Greek” – Paul also says there’s no male or female, but that is never understood by Christians to authorise cross-dressing! Paul is saying that in terms of salvation there is one way for all, he isn’t saying Jews need to stop being Jews any more than Gentiles need to stop being Gentiles
- Paul nowhere forbids Jewish Christians from retaining Jewish practices, see in particular Romans 13-14 (on the Sabbath and kosher) and Acts 21 (where Paul is prepared to offer a blood sacrifice to testify that he never encouraged diaspora Jews to turn away from Jewish practices)
- Paul himself circumcised Timothy, who had one Jewish parent
- Other examples could be given.

“the earliest Christians those who agreed with Paul and the minority that disagreed with him, all understood these passages, and his approach in general, to mean that Christians should stay away from Jewish observance.” … but Paul was prepared to offer a blood sacrifice in the temple to show that wasn’t what he was teaching! And there is evidence of groups such as the Ebionites who retained Jewish practices.

Anyway – I’ll leave it there for now.

Quick note;

The Ebionites where roundly condemned by the church founders!

Besides which the evidence we have of the Ebionites is that while believing Jesus to be the Moshiach (the Jewish concept that is, not the Christian one) they rejected his divinity, salvation and virgin birth! This then is not really comparable with most modern day Messianic Christians.

But alas Kevin, I concur that we will have to agree to disagree.

Finally none of these historical debates into the early history of Christianity, are relevant to the status of Messianic Christianity in Judaism.

“but Paul was prepared to offer a blood sacrifice in the temple to show that wasn’t what he was teaching!”

Perhaps this manifestation of Jewish observance is in accord with his dictum;

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.”