Perhaps this manifestation of Jewish observance is in accord with his dictum;

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.”

The Ebionites where roundly condemned by the church founders!

Besides which the evidence we have of the Ebionites is that while believing Jesus to be the Moshiach (the Jewish concept that is, not the Christian one) they rejected his divinity, salvation and virgin birth! This then is not really comparable with most modern day Messianic Christians.

But alas Kevin, I concur that we will have to agree to disagree.

Finally none of these historical debates into the early history of Christianity, are relevant to the status of Messianic Christianity in Judaism.

“the earliest Christians those who agreed with Paul and the minority that disagreed with him, all understood these passages, and his approach in general, to mean that Christians should stay away from Jewish observance.” … but Paul was prepared to offer a blood sacrifice in the temple to show that wasn’t what he was teaching! And there is evidence of groups such as the Ebionites who retained Jewish practices.

Anyway – I’ll leave it there for now.

This can’t refer to Gentiles as they where not obligated by the law.

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”

“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”

“But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (the law).”

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

A classic reason given by the church fathers for opposing Jewish practice by all Christians, is that it would emphasise Jew and Greek, when as Paul taught, there would be no Jew or Greek.

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage”

And many more examples can be brought.

Now I’m sure that you will understand these verses in ways that differ from me, but please remember the earliest Christians those who agreed with Paul and the minority that disagreed with him, all understood these passages, and his approach in general, to mean that Christians should stay away from Jewish observance.

But what about the other Christian scriptures that where not included by the Church fathers in the NT, that often contradict standard Christian theology. Perhaps they were correct examples of Christianity and the church fathers who you suggest may have got it wrong over Christians and Jewish ritual, may have got it wrong about that too?

Paul himself writes bitterly against Torah observance, and in terms that signifies that he views Torah observance in general as detrimental.

It is easy for us nearly 2000 years later to debate exactly what he had in mind when he wrote what he wrote, but it is fair to say that those living very soon after Paul’s death took his teachings as evidence that no Christian, Jew or Gentile, should observe Jewish practice. For example Ignatius of Antioch who lived either at the time of Paul or shortly after around the year 100 was very very clear when he said, “It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.”

And the councils that came after him, councils that created the creeds by which Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and others live their lives, expressly forbid the observance of Jewish practice to all Christians. And for this reason Christians, for the overwhelming majority of historical time, including Christians of Jewish origin, did not maintain Jewish practice.

At the end of the day, this is a discussion which is best suited between Christians and Messianics. The only reason I mentioned it, is to demonstrate that the issue is not simply one that should concern Jews, but that it has important theological ramifications for Christians too.

Yeze, forgive me for asking, but having read your definition of your faith, would you if asked describe yourself as a Christian, or a Messianic Jew?

But what about the other Christian scriptures that where not included by the Church fathers in the NT, that often contradict standard Christian theology. Perhaps they were correct examples of Christianity and the church fathers who you suggest may have got it wrong over Christians and Jewish ritual, may have got it wrong about that too?

Paul himself writes bitterly against Torah observance, and in terms that signifies that he views Torah observance in general as detrimental.

It is easy for us nearly 2000 years later to debate exactly what he had in mind when he wrote what he wrote, but it is fair to say that those living very soon after Paul’s death took his teachings as evidence that no Christian, Jew or Gentile, should observe Jewish practice. For example Ignatius of Antioch who lived either at the time of Paul or shortly after around the year 100 was very very clear when he said, “It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.”

And the councils that came after him, councils that created the creeds by which Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and others live their lives, expressly forbid the observance of Jewish practice to all Christians. And for this reason Christians, for the overwhelming majority of historical time, including Christians of Jewish origin, did not maintain Jewish practice.

At the end of the day, this is a discussion which is best suited between Christians and Messianics. The only reason I mentioned it, is to demonstrate that the issue is not simply one that should concern Jews, but that it has important theological ramifications for Christians too.

Yeze, forgive me for asking, but having read your definition of your faith, would you if asked describe yourself as a Christian, or a Messianic Jew?

They themselves compiled the NT, and effectively shaped the theology of Christianity. So if they departed from the documents as you say, what does that say about Christianity as a whole?”

Sorry, should have made myself clearer. By “the authors of the NT” I mean the actual writers of the NT (almost all of whom were Jewish, of course). By “the church fathers” I mean later (Gentile) Christians such as Justin Martyr and John Chrysostom, whose anti-Judaic/anti-Semitic teachings are completely at variance with any fair reading of the NT.

“Secondly, it has been argued that Paul himself in his letters is less than pleased with the insistence by some Jewish Christians in retaining the practices of Judaism.”

That’s not my understanding of Paul – his letters oppose Gentile Christians adopting Jewish practices, but in the book of Acts we see Paul taking an active role in preserving Jewish identity (Acts 21 if you want a reference). I cannot see anywhere in the NT where Paul opposes Jewish Christians retaining Jewish practices.
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Wikipedia is a good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

My own feelings are that Messianic Jews are part of global Christianity (the body of Messiah), and whilst I like judaica and Hebrew prayers and worship songs, our religion isn’t Judaism per se as modern day Judaism explicitly rejects the messiahship of Jesus.

In that sense I may differ from other Messianic Jews who do see themselves as part of Judaism. There are different opinions on this though.