Harry's Place

I am no Rabbi, and I in no way wish to condemn the author of a book I have not even read, but I do question practically everything that I have heard is written in this book. And as for the passage;

““If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments – because we care about the commandments – there is nothing wrong with the murder.”

It would seem to directly contradict, for example, the Maharal, who informs us that even if the opportunity would arise to end the life of an established Idol worshipper (and hence someone who has violated one of the seven commandments) even if not by directly shedding his blood, for example luring him into a well and pulling away the ladder, it would be unequivocally forbidden!

It seems that the book in question was not written as a guide to practical halacha, but as a theoretical exposition, much like books are written discussing the intricacies of Temple practice at a time when there is no Temple. I believe the book intentionally points out to its readers not to take the law into their own hands.

However, I agree such books can engender an atmosphere, especially amoungst ignorant angry people, which may “justify” crimes taking place. Considering the often tense and heated atmosphere in Israel, and specifically in many of the yishuvim, I question the wisdom of publishing such a book.

As the Sages said “Who is wise? He who foresees the outcome” (Tamid 32a)

“It seems that the book in question was not written as a guide to practical halacha, but as a theoretical exposition, much like books are written discussing the intricacies of Temple practice at a time when there is no Temple. I believe the book intentionally points out to its readers not to take the law into their own hands.”

That might be so – and I note your position on the theology of the book and the intrinsic danger of such a theological position.

However, you’d expect a nut like this to present his theology as ‘a mere theological exposition’ rather than ‘a call to action’… because otherwise, he’d be prosecuted.

Yes?

It is utterly repulsive stuff. Evil is a difficult thing to define but I think justifying the murder of babies pretty much sums it up.

The “it’s only theoretical” argument is one we have heard before, from similar preachers of hate in other religions, and it doesn’t wash.

How on earth can “babies” be a threat to a nation?

Yet another HP column on a supposed Israel/Jewish flaw, with no reference to how many people in Israel will actually read the book in question, or care.

Every nation has cranks. HP’s obsessive focus on Israel’s is putting HP closer and closer to the Guardian.

Easy now, folks.
Our fearless columnist himself demurs: “IF…IF this is true…”
Well let’s look at the source: Ha’Aretz, no less, which has an agenda which includes, indeed encourages, the left-wing view of all decent, righteous Jewish Organisations as murdering, racist scum!
And our columnist himself thinks that Shapiro is “possibly” a member of Chabad and then goes on to swallow the Ha’Aretz hook, line and sinker; worse, he says he deplores the ideology but admires the work, hating what Chabad says, but loving what they do!
Some metric for a hit piece!
And presumably if Rabbi Holzberg of the Chabad House in Mumbai had killed that vile terrorist that tortured his wife, Ha’Aretz would have said that he had acted in accordance with Chabad Philosophy!
Shame on the person who has originated this slander; double shame on Harry’s Place for disseminating it!

The irony is that Chabad and the Lubavich regularly break the 7 (Noahic) commandments through their idolatry of Schneerson.

Is Shapiro trying to prove that it’s permissable to kill Lubaviche rebbes?

And remind me, why is it that we’re all meant to show deference to certain beliefs and clerics because they have the pseudo-grace of a religious origin or outfit?

It is worth noting that this Rabbi was roundly condemned in Israel. The news of his book was on the lead story of Yediot Ahronot, where the paper’s front-page editorial slated it as “providing the materials for Jewish terror”.

Sickening.

Is the author of this post aware of the existence of upper-case letters and their role in written English? I stopped reading as soon as I saw it was written in glorified text-speak.

Arieh :
“It is worth noting that this Rabbi was roundly condemned in Israel. The news of his book was on the lead story of Yediot Ahronot, where the paper’s front-page editorial slated it as “providing the materials for Jewish terror”.”

Unlike Britain where the leading racist got free time on national TV to explain his views.

Isn’t the fact that we roundly condemn this idea proof enough that its a thesis which has absolutely no support from 99.99999% of Jews.

If the passage about killing babies is a hypothetical discussion then I think its OK to discuss such moral dilemmas. Its a disgusting concept ut not outside the realm of legitimiate philosophical discourse.

I remember how the words of The Talmud were once bent by “Iron Naz” on BBC 5Live, which caused a storm between BOD and BBC. The Antisemities assertion is that The Talmud permits sex with babies. The reality is that there was a Rabbinical discussion about the status of a perpetrator and baby if rape occured. The Rabbis gave an answer. But this passage was used by Antisemities to say that The Talmud permits Jews to have sex with babies. It doesn’t.

Smilarly with “Jews can tell lies”. The actual discourse in the Talmud was “Is it permissible to lie to a Roman Tax collector”. The answer was “Yes” because it was considered that the tax collection was illegal.

I’m sure this philosophical discussion about killing babies is going to be used in the same way.

First of all, Chabad followers don’t in general believe in the last Rebbe as the Messiah, tevya, at best you are referring to a small group within Chabad that wishes to believe so against the wishes of the last Rebbe. No need to apply the sledgehammer to all Chabadniks.

Second, can someone please enlighten us as to the actual official function of these two rabbis within Chabad? What is the position they hold, what duties are they responsible for?

Levi, I am delighted if the whole of Chabad doesn’t believe in this kind of idolatry. Sledgehammer disapplied.

But why is this kind of thing tolerated at all? Isn’t it against everything that Judaism stands for? Is it a new religion just waiting for its St Paul?

>[...]The “it’s only theoretical” argument is one we have heard before, from similar preachers of hate in other religions, and it doesn’t wash.But why is this kind of thing [messiahship of MMSchneerson] tolerated at all? Isn’t it against everything that Judaism stands for? Is it a new religion just waiting for its St Paul?< tevya

Don’t you mean its St Saul?

I’m unapologetically reapplying the sledgehammer.

The last Lubavitch leader MM Schneerson, made no attempt ever to discourage Messianism within the movement nor to discourage the belief that he was/is the (potential) messiah.

The key is in looking at what Chabad does inside the movement not what it shows the outside world. In their own synagogues, prayers in the direction of pictures of MMS are normative, empty chairs placed next to the holy ark are also common. Chanting messianic slogans throughout the prayers constantly break out. I’m all for freedom of religion, but don’t call it Judaism.

The other remarkable and unique feature about them is that they only marry among their own sect. Even among the most extreme hassidic groups, there is marriage between groups.

Moreover, they always insist on the mode of prayer being changed to their specific and far from normative mode of prayer which, in and of itself, is a function of their messianism – if MMS (the messiah)prayed that way, any other manner is de facto heretical.

The normative code of Jewish law, held by all Orthodox Jews as the standard text for Halacha – the Shulchan Aruch written by Rabbi Yosef Caro does not hold for Chabad – their first rebbe wrote his own code “superceding” the Caro version. Many of their yeshiva students have never even heard of the Caro book.

But let’s leave the theology apart. The world over, Chabad are trying to redefine the Jewish world with themselves claiming to be the sole arbiters of authentic Judaism. Where they hold hegemony – in the FSU, they brook no opposition and use the state apparatus to deny access to other Jewish groups and particularly to other Orthodox ones.

And since we’re at it and many would want to debate the racism side, their set text, the Tanya, has very special and denigrative descriptions for all non-Jews. Chabad despises non-Jews. It deliberately omits prayers for the welfare for the state in its own synagogues and racist discourse is common. They are also rabid anti-Zionists, notwithstanding their extreme right-wing positions regarding territorial compromise. Anyone who feels like digging around for the electoral records of chabad towns and villages in Israel will see the huge percentage votes for far-right and not necessarily religious parties over many years.
Prayers for the State of Israel are also not part of their liturgy. Celebrations of Israel’s independence are also out.

With the rebbe gone and central authority gone within the movement all the gloves are off – they are a menace – and since we are on a blog which supposedly backs the seperation of religion from the public sphere – let’s get in a quick mention for the ridiculous and un-Jewish spectacle of public chanukah lighting graced by politicians. For any Jews who think all this Chabad stuff is cuddly, let’s try and imagine what we’d think if every town hall around the country ran a church service graced by the mayor on the town square every Christmas or Easter or maybe you’d like an Id El Fitr mass pray-in on Trafalgar Square.

>The “it’s only theoretical” argument is one we have heard before, from similar preachers of hate in other religions, and it doesn’t wash.< Dave Rich 11:16pm

(Second try.) Yes, it is thoroughly disgusting, vile and primitive. However, unlike the mountains of barbaric stuff taught and then disseminated hourly from the preachers of hate in the other religion(s) you allude to, which is read, marked, learned, inwardly digested and acted upon with fervour, this molehill of crap has been met with disapproval, condemnation and scorn.

It seems that the book in question was not written as a guide to practical halacha, but as a theoretical exposition, much like books are written discussing the intricacies of Temple practice at a time when there is no Temple. I believe the book intentionally points out to its readers not to take the law into their own hands.

that is exactly the sort of argument i won’t accept from muslim hate preachers and, considering the past activities of rabbi ginsburgh and the sort of activity connected to the sort of people that live in yitzhar, this kind of technical fidgy-widginess, as dave rich says, simply won’t wash. it is making excuses for bigotry and wherever the side of goodness, decency, ahavat yisrael, ahavat shalom and kiddush haShem is, it isn’t on the side of these people.

However, I agree such books can engender an atmosphere, especially amoungst ignorant angry people, which may “justify” crimes taking place. Considering the often tense and heated atmosphere in Israel, and specifically in many of the yishuvim, I question the wisdom of publishing such a book.

that’s because it’s perfectly obvious that the purpose of publishing such a book is to allow settlers to kill people and think it’s halakhically permissible to do so. only in the insane world these people live in, where they make an idol of the land, is such a thing contemplable.

a supposed Israel/Jewish flaw

nope. it’s a definite flaw in a definitely diseased part of the jewish/israeli body politic that should be excised. i know we haven’t forgotten what herems are for. i don’t call for them lightly. this is nothing short of idolatrous behaviour.

the left-wing view of all decent, righteous Jewish Organisations as murdering, racist scum!

so, are you arguing that jack teitel is decent and righteous, or that he is a murdering racist scumbag? i would have posted it from ma’ariv if it were in english, or yediot aharonot if i’d seen it in time.

Shapiro is “possibly” a member of Chabad

failedmessiah.com thinks so – i referenced the source and said “possibly”.

he deplores the ideology but admires the work, hating what Chabad says, but loving what they do! Some metric for a hit piece!

what, i can’t approve of good things done out of love and disapprove of evil things done out of hate, by different people in the same organisation? what i am saying here is that *if* this comes down to chabad ideology, as it seems it might, then that is something we need to seriously look at considering how pervasive this organisation is in communal life. i’m not against chabad per se, but i can see how problematic this sort of theology could be – i want transparency and, unfortunately, in my experience of kiruv-oriented haredi groups, that is the last thing you get.

And presumably if Rabbi Holzberg of the Chabad House in Mumbai had killed that vile terrorist that tortured his wife, Ha’Aretz would have said that he had acted in accordance with Chabad Philosophy!

you are an imbecile. like everyone else, i prayed for the holzbergs hourly as that tragedy unfolded. as someone from a mumbaikar family and a dear friend of someone who knew the holzbergs well, i felt it especially keenly. if r. holzberg had done this, i would have been the first in the queue to applaud – but he would have done it out of entirely permissible pikuah nefesh, not because he thought you could kill someone over land, even holy land. shame on you to abuse the name of someone who was killed for kiddush haShem and equate it to someone who seeks to sanction killing out of idolatrous lust.

And remind me, why is it that we’re all meant to show deference to certain beliefs and clerics because they have the pseudo-grace of a religious origin or outfit?

it’s not just jews! you might enjoy this piece: http://www.spittoon.org/archives/3501

Is the author of this post aware of the existence of upper-case letters and their role in written English? I stopped reading as soon as I saw it was written in glorified text-speak.

you’re quite welcome, of course, but it’s nothing like txtspk, which i abhor. i also avoid the oxford comma.

Isn’t the fact that we roundly condemn this idea proof enough that its a thesis which has absolutely no support from 99.99999% of Jews.

quite!

I’m sure this philosophical discussion about killing babies is going to be used in the same way.

even worse, it might be used to rely on for action, the same way a “supposedly theoretical” discussion about “din rodef” was used to rely on for the assassination of rabin.

b’shalom

bananabrain

anyway, i’m going to be asking some very pointed questions of any chabad rabbi i encounter any time soon.

You might also ask him what precicely it is that they get form chopping bits off infant boy’s genitalia.

Why so outraged? It’s just religion.

Bananabrain, you protest far too much. The fact is that Ha’Aretz, from being a serious newspaper in my distant youth, has descended to the sewers and joined the Guardian (likewise a serious paper once upon a time) in an orgy of antisemitic yellow journalism.

Hi tevya.
I don’t know why it is tolerated, but I guess you can argue with people and if that doesn’t get you anywhere…

Hi phil.
Are you sure that he never did anything to counter this belief in him? I have heard otherwise. There’s anectdotal stuff such as that he lost his temper once when some of this group started singing something to indicate he was the Messiah and his personal secretary also mentioned that this was not what he had wanted. But I wasn’t there, so I don’t really know.

With regard to pictures of the last Rebbe… well, you will find these in each Chabad center. Given that some Chabad “centers” are only a (living) room (more or less), the picture may be in the same room in which prayers are held. However, you never pray facing the picture in Chabad. I don’t know how often you go pray at a Chabad, but believe me. Some people in Chabad even go to ridiculous lengths covering up walls so that it cannot be conceived as them praying to some form of idol. (There’s a funny video somewhere showing Matisyahu and friends being in such a dilemma).

About your numerous other comments, if you really believe the stuff you wrote, then I’m really sorry for you. You must have had some really uncharctareistic and bad experiences with Chabad, or you just hate them because only you know why.

Allow me one final question, phil. Just out of interest, where did you get this misinformation from?

RE: Every nation has cranks. HP’s obsessive focus on Israel’s is putting HP closer and closer to the Guardian.

HP does not have an obsessive focus on Israel, at least not a negative one, certainly, and is no fan of the guardian. You’re right, though, about every nation having its cranks. Calling HP anti-Israeli and David T an anti-semite means you certainly qualify.

RE: Is the author of this post aware of the existence of upper-case letters and their role in written English? I stopped reading as soon as I saw it was written in glorified text-speak.

Three comments:
1-is the author of the above aware of not seeing the forest for the trees? obsessive focus on the little things make you oblivious to big things, like ideas.

2-so you stopped reading … who flippin’ cares?

3-How do you spot those missing caps with your head so far up your colon anyway?

Vildechaye, it is perfectly reasonable to point out the illiteracy of the writer of an opinion piece. No anatomical colons are involved (and the author of the piece is pretty ignorant of the grammatical ones). And the commenter’s opinions are as worthy of stating as are yours.

Several points:

1. There are those on this thread who wish to libel the post as anti-Israeli and even anti-Semitic. As far as I am concerned, it is exactly those defenders of the Yitzhar Rabbi and his murderous, racist filth who are the real anti-Israelis, because they identify the entire Israeli society with this scum. This is precisely the most extreme, toxic anti-Israeli argument, namely that the Israeli society as such is racists and genocidal.

2. It is true that an overwhelming majority of the Israeli society rejects this genocidal talk: not just Peace Now and Meretz but the entire political spectrum, except perhaps for parts of Ihud Leumi… Yet… There are enough, certainly more than the tiny fraction it was claimed above, for whom this is mood music: the settlers of Yitzhar, Shvut Rahel, Kiryat Arba, Tapuah and few other localities like this (as much as I oppose West Bank settlements, I don’t believe that this applies to most settlers, just to significant minority), the Kahane Hai thugs and a collection of bigots, weirdos and madcap fundamentalists at the nether margins of Israeli society. They are at the margins but often they are armed, dangerous and present genuine peril for the Israeli society and democracy.

3. In principle, I don’t care if 0.1% of 10% of Israelis agree with Rabbi Shapiro, if his book is “prescriptive” or “theoretical”. Racism is racism is racism, no matter what is its origin and what is its target.

4. I don’t have particular love for Chabad and I regard them as a messianic movement, seriously dabbling with idolatry and preaching, sort-of Jewish equivalent of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-Day Saints. Yet, their idolatry is their business. It isn’t my business whether they pray to a portrait of Rabbi “Prepare thyself to the coming of Messiah!” Schneurson or not. I am in favour of freedom of religion, and this includes freedom of bizarre sects.

GB: RE: And the commenter’s opinions are as worthy of stating as are yours.

Exactly. And I don’t think much of his opinions (just as you don’t think much of mine), entitled though he is to have them. What’s your point?

levi: I agree with S.O Muffin and others here, Chabad can practice idolatry gezunteheid- freedom of religion, freedom of meshugas. My main objection is the double standard of the cosying up to them by the United Synagogue Orthodox establishment in the UK while scorning Masorti and Reform.
And my other objection is you insulting us by trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Enough of us have heard the Yechis at 770 (Chabad headquarters, Crown Heights) etc. I was on a course at Limmud on different concepts of Messiah in Judaism, and a number of defectors from Chabad who said Chabadniks are divided into those who proclaimed the Rebbe as God Messiah, and those who concealed their belief in him for the time being. That may or may not be true, but I have observed the entryism into the United Synagogue. We have a Chabad Rabbi and I have watched the subtle progress of his insinuation into the shul of Chabad practice and dogma over the years.

My point, vildechaye, is that when you say ‘Who flipping cares?’, this is tantamount to saying: “I vildechaye don’t care what you think, ergo nobody on this board cares for what you think”. Just a little arrogant, perhaps?

My point, vildechaye, is that when you say ‘Who flipping cares?’, this is tantamount to saying: “I vildechaye don’t care what you think, ergo nobody on this board cares for what you think”. Just a little arrogant, perhaps?

Vildechaye has stated my views already. I’m always pleased when I see his name as one generally gets something sensible from him.

The most distrubing sentence in this thread comes, I regret to say, from YoussiK:

“It seems that the book in question was not written as a guide to practical halacha, but as a theoretical exposition…”

Does theoretical exposition wipe the blood off these wrods:

“If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments – because we care about the commandments – there is nothing wrong with the murder.”

what precicely it is that they get form chopping bits off infant boy’s genitalia.

pride, solidarity and joy at facilitating entry into the sole surviving diaspora culture of the ancient world, combined with knowledge – from personal experience – that it doesn’t actually do any permanent damage or prevent said boy from eventually having a full and entirely satisfying sex life, we’ll leave aside any more arguable benefits such as giving the father solidarity and an emotional connection comparable to the mother’s birth pains through a blood initiation rite, as well as all the scientific stuff (which, religiously, i won’t rely on although it may very well be valid) about reducing certain forms of cancer and improving sexual health. precise enough?

The fact is that Ha’Aretz, from being a serious newspaper in my distant youth, has descended to the sewers and joined the Guardian (likewise a serious paper once upon a time) in an orgy of antisemitic yellow journalism.

that’s why i noted that the same story has been reported extensively elsewhere, by other papers. i carry no particular brief for ha-aretz.

it is perfectly reasonable to point out the illiteracy of the writer of an opinion piece.

especially if that itself, is a matter of opinion – and not one i have ever heard before, but if you would like to tell me what grammatical errors i have made then i will gladly look into them. i can only see one colon in my piece and as far as i know, it’s being used correctly. of course, as a humble blogger, i have not had the privilege of extensive training in journalism and sub-editing, unlike your good self, presumably.

My main objection is the double standard of the cosying up to them by the United Synagogue Orthodox establishment in the UK while scorning Masorti and Reform.

that is something that has been bothering me to a long time, but it’s not the main point here, obviously.

b’shalom

bananabrain

Regarding the US establishment, it’s not really their fault. It’s that they are not producing their own rabbis and therefore have to turn to Chabad to fill a need.

Levi, thanks for your comments but you really should address the questions.

1. Why no prayer for the welfare of the state you are living in in Chabad synagogues?

2. Why no prayer for the State of Israel.

3. Why the extremist ultra-right wing views re: Palestinians.

4. Why the acceptance of changing to Chabad mode of prayer but not the other way round?

5. Why do they only marry within the sect – and we both know we’re not talking about the BT’s but the real Chabad.?

6. What’s wrong with everyone else’s shulchan aruch?

7. And if you answer this one, I’ll let you off with the rest – Please confirm that since MMS is now deceased he cannot be the Messiah?

Best,

Phil

Hi amie.
If a bunch of guys at Limmud said so, then it must be true, and ergo I am either a liar or have lost touch with reality. Nice one. If this was true, why has no one ever tried to impose these views on me (in 5 different countries)?

Hi phil.
Let’s start with 7. The last Rebbe is not the Messiah. I wouldn’t know which part of scripture should nudge us to believe otherwise (that he’s it) and then there’s the quite logical reason you mention :)

6. When we sat shive for my dad, his (Chabad) rabbi studied from the Shulhan Aruch with us and our visitors. Where have you heard that Chabad rejects this? I will try to find out whether anyone I know believes that it shouldn’t be studied.

5. Where do you get this data from? Do they? I have never checked all spouses for their Chassidic heritage. And what’s the difference between a BT in Chabad and someone born into Chabad?

4. What do you mean by ‘other way around’? Chabad prayer books are nusach Ari Zal, based on Lurianic Kabbalah, quite close to nussach Sefard, which was used traditionally by Chassidic movements in Eastern Europe. The big deal with Chabad when it was founded was to make people understand that they themselves are responsible for their spiritual development and taking action (deeds of kindness, studying…) and that they can’t simply rely on a rabbi to magically do this for them. As part of this, let’s say enlightenment or emancipation of the Chassid, the teaching of Kabbalah was to become commonplace and more accessible to everyone instead of just the accomplished scholar. The connection between the accessibility of Kabbalah and reliance on nusach Ari Zal must be more involved than that, but this is as far as my knowledge goes.

3. Again, the views of Chabadniks on the Palestinians and peace efforts vary widely. In my personal experience, I have heard much more primitive views on Palestinians from secular Jews than I have from Chabad rabbis. A Chabbadnik called Yitz Jordan used to have a blog where he dabbled in political things – he doesn’t seem right-wing at all to me.

1., 2. I must admit that I never noticed these prayers missing. I seem to remember on Shabbes during meshaberach the rabbi always adding one for kahal, country (i think Israel) and servicemen I will have to get hold of a Chabad prayer book and look for this. Btw, do Artscroll siddurim include a prayer for welfare of your country?

I will look into 1, 2, and 6.

He’s not the Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy!

Weird and wonderful. Should I fear the rise of anti-gentilism? Probably not, although I had begun to view Judaism as inherently less crazy than the ‘great’ religions that pirated its cosmogony, and now I’m not so sure. Buddhists are complete barkers if that’s any comfort! Being an ex-altar boy, the baby-killing reminded me of the ‘massacre of the innocents’ – pure fiction, although ‘The story may have its origins in Herod’s murder of his own sons, an act which made a deep impression at the time’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

Spare a thought for Cambodian ‘civil society’, sweet sixteen and going off the rails…
http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2009111129461/National-news/dont-stop-the-press.html

All the best, Mr T.
x

Just one more comment about the welfare prayer – were Chabad not the first ones on the ground to help the victims of Katrina? If you can express your concern for the welfare of your fellow citizens in any better way…

if you would like to tell me what grammatical errors i have made then i will gladly look into them

Beginning every sentence in lowercase is a grammatical error. You don’t need to be a trained journalist to know this.

what’s the difference between a BT in Chabad and someone born into Chabad?

it’s not just chabad, this – a BT in chabad and many other form of haredi judaism will find it difficult to contract a good marriage with a frum-from-birth haredi, so they’ll have to marry another BT. i believe this is because of concerns about the BT’s parents not observing taharat hamishpacha at the time of conception, but i’ve never seen that written down anywhere. anyway, that attitude is not something i would approve of.

prayer books are nusach Ari Zal, based on Lurianic Kabbalah, quite close to nussach Sefard, which was used traditionally by Chassidic movements in Eastern Europe.

as someone who uses real nusah sefarad, in fact nusah babli, it’s quite a lot different from “sefard” in my experience, whilst both are influenced heavily by the ariza”l. and don’t get me started on feckin’ artscroll, the disney / microsoft-style trojan horse of salafi judaism.

In my personal experience, I have heard much more primitive views on Palestinians from secular Jews than I have from Chabad rabbis.

likewise – but i also know one rabbi that quit chabad over his interfaith activities, probably for this reason.

on Shabbes during meshaberach the rabbi always adding one for kahal, country (i think Israel) and servicemen

i’m not sure it’s actually in the international chabad siddur, because that doesn’t relate to any one particular country, but i could be wrong. i’m pretty sure none of them are in the artscroll. you should also check whether israel is referred to as “reshut semikhat ge’ulateinu” because i doubt a chabad rabbi would be allowed to say such a thing – in fact, i have serious problems with that myself these days, just as i have serious problems with some of the formulations of the prayer for servicemen that i hear.

Should I fear the rise of anti-gentilism?

oh, that’s been around for centuries, in various places, but it was never as explicit as this before the rise of theocratic haredism and ultra-right zionism if you ask me.

I had begun to view Judaism as inherently less crazy than the ‘great’ religions that pirated its cosmogony, and now I’m not so sure.

the only seats we retain on the moral high horse come from refusing to evangelise and learning to live as a self-sufficient, integrated diaspora community, but in everything else, thanks to our lunatic fringe, any laurels that we might have had have long become tarnished.

were Chabad not the first ones on the ground to help the victims of Katrina?

well, that’s kind of my point – the theology worries me, but i am the first to say they do some real good.

Beginning every sentence in lowercase is a grammatical error. You don’t need to be a trained journalist to know this.

hur hur hur, very amusing – but don’t be such a po-faced tight-arse. i hardly think the ability to spot something that is so evidently a deliberately adopted stylistic attempt to create an individual narrative voice qualifies you to lecture me about illiteracy.

b’shalom

bananabrain

“The most distrubing sentence in this thread comes, I regret to say, from YoussiK:

“It seems that the book in question was not written as a guide to practical halacha, but as a theoretical exposition…”

Does theoretical exposition wipe the blood off these wrods:

“If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments – because we care about the commandments – there is nothing wrong with the murder.””

Felix, I have stated clearly that the killing of gentiles who may have violated the seven commandments is forbidden. I mentioned the teachings of the Maharal to that effect, and I stated clearly that I think it is regretful that this book was published because of the possible effects that it could lead to.

My point in stressing the theoretical nature of the tome, was simply to dispel the notion that this book was written as a practical guide book for Jews to kill non-Jews.

If have not spoken out in harsher terms, it is simply because I have not read this book, nor have I read or heard an interview of the Rabbi in question to hear what he has to say.

If everything said about this book is true, then I happily join my voice to those who condemn it in the harshest terms.