Harry's Place

What a disgusting lack of respect for our brave servicemen.

Indeed, an utter abomination. When do we get to tap their phones?

Problem with this story about Brown is it shows that if our PM is so fucking incompetent he cant even write a proper letter, than we should not be surprised about the level of morons inhabiting the dependency culture within public services…..

Thats Labour scum for you.

Ya, but at least we know when to use an apostrophe.

Sy,

Har har har

Goldbug, are you really a complete idiot or is that just an act?

Gordon Brown is blind in one eye and impaired in the other. He has to use a felt-tipped pen to write letters. It’s not incompetence, it’s a disability. What are you going to do next, tip manure on to Stephen Hawking’s doorstep because he can’t dance a foxtrot effectively?

Brown would have been criticised far worse if he had one of his aides write the letter for him, or – God forbid – he sent a word-processed letter.

There may be a fair share of morons in Government – but it does seem to be representative of society, where 2m of these morons buy the Sun every day.

Goldbug, we also know the difference between ‘then’ and ‘than’.

True he has a disability and his handwriting is abominable but spelling is another issue. His lamentable spelling is not what you would expect from someone with a PhD in history!

Goldbug, stop being drawn into this absolute non-story. WobyTide is spot on.

Notchblad we don’t know if the spelling mistake was his, he may have been given the information with the name already incorrect.

Brown could have started another letter when he made a mistake. Then again, I assume he knows when to use the in/definite article, Goldbug.

@goldbug – Once we’re done with Brown, maybe we should sack every dyslexia sufferer or person with chicken scratch handwriting from high ranking government positions?

In the version of the letter I saw, it looked (in most cases) like piss-poor penmanship – understandable due to using a poxing great Berol felt-tip to write with – than actual spelling mistakes.

Most of the ‘mistakes’ were about ‘missing’ letter Es. In that flow/style of writing, I can imagine they’d disappear pretty easily.

As for the James/Janes thing – as Tiddles pointed out above, it’s not been an error in just one place, it’s been in two, so could quite easily have been supplied incorrectly in the first place. Yes, they should be checked, but it’s not all Brown’s fault.

Sure, he’s an incompetent useless one-eyed fuckbag, but not *everything* is his fault, much as it pains me to say it.

Goldbug, appalling spelling and grammar as displayed by the likes of yourself have ruined this country’s reputation for fine wordmanship. Please stop pissing all over Shakespeare, you dolt.

prats!

While I am no great admirer of Brown, it must be said that the Sun is behaving in this regard rather like the organizer of a lynch mob, as opposed to the player of one of the honorable roles that properly belongs to the press in a democratic society.

Maybe whoever is behind it all could start a blog?

This may be a non-story, and the PM’s visual impairment may be behind this gaffe, but Brown’s contempt for the military is indisputable – as is the fact that the feeling is mutual. Whether it’s General Guthrie recalling the Chancellor’s brush-off when he tried to brief him on defence-related issues after Labour entered office, or the contents of the ARRSE threads, Brown’s shitty attitude towards the armed forces is out there for anyone with eyes to see.

How far can your tongue reach up Brown’s butt?

Did anyone actually listen to the transcript of the call between Brown and the bereaved mother? He is arguing with her when she points out all his errors. Her actually lies as usual saying she has misread his spelling mistakes.

Now many of you lefty twats may hate the SUN because they have decided to back the Tories, but that you are making such feeble excuses for Brown is laughable.

Brown is an unelected dimwit. The SUN may be full of shit a lot of the time, as is the Guardian and BBC, but they were right to highlight Brown’s compulsive lying disorder.

Brown has shown he is incompetent in the most basic of functions of a prime minister in writing a letter never mind the mess he has made of the major job of a leading the country. I don’t know why you would expect Brown or Hawkings to do the foxtrot as this has nothing to do with their job but surely writing a letter does! If a disabilty is meaning you are unable to carry out your job look for alternatives like my friend who has a disability, he accepts he is unable to do certain things to expected levels.
Also… Sorry if I have made spelling or grammar mistakes but I don’t run the country!

Brown has shown he is incompetent in the most basic of functions of a prime minister in writing a letter never mind the mess he has made of the major job of a leading the country. I don’t know why you would expect Brown or Hawkings to do the foxtrot as this has nothing to do with their job but surely writing a letter does! If a disability is meaning you are unable to carry out your job look for alternatives like my friend who has a disability, he accepts he is unable to do certain things to expected levels.
Also… Sorry if I have made spelling or grammar mistakes but I don’t run the country!

I guess we should all go and listen to that transcript then…

@goldbug –
Pointing out that Brown is unelected is either false – he was elected to parliament – or indicative of an utter failure to understand the UK constitution.

We don’t elect the PM. We elect MPs. The PM is usually the leader of the largest party in the Commons – but there’s no reason why that has to be the case; there’s no real reason why the PM even has to be an MP. So if that’s what you mean by “unelected”, then you’re only trivially correct. No PM has been elected ever, and none will be under the current constitutional framework.

So: was your comment trivial or false?

How can you listen to a transcript of a telephone call, Goldbug?

I certainly READ it.

She said there were 25 errors. He said there weren’t. (Actually, she said there ‘was’ 25 errors. But hey, let’s not nitpick, hey?)

Brown was right. There were not 25 errors. As pointed out earlier, the errors highlighted by the Sun – because their readers couldn’t do it themselves, presumably – centred on a few missing Es and the honest mistake of confusing an ‘M’ with an ‘N’.

Explain to me how Brown is an ‘unelected dimwit’?

I distinctly remember him being elected into his constituency in 2005. That was a fact. The British electoral system does not elect a Prime Minister. We choose our MPs as according to our constituency.

That’s how it works.

Now, if you don’t mind, I have another use for my tongue, and it involves a cup of tea and a sandwich.

This idea of Gordon Brown being unelected is so idiotic – he is the elected member of parliament for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. We don’t vote for members of the cabinet, we vote for members of parliament. Tony Blair wasn’t elected as PM, he was elected as an MP and the the Labour Party made him party leader and therefore PM. Brown’s authority as PM is the same as any other. And by the way, pick up a PhD history book, or any economics book past A-level, have a read, and then call him a dimwit.

Having said that I’m not at all into Labour, but you really need to pick your fights, otherwise you look like a dimwit yourself, and people will ignore you when (if) you make a reasonable point.

Goldbug… can you listen to a transcript? I assume you have someone who reads such things to you?
Brown is not ‘unelected’ – he was elected fairly and squarely by the people of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath with a majority of over 18,000 (some 4,000 more than David Cameron’s majority in Witney). In a Parliamentary Democracy, we don’t vote for a Prime Minister or a President, we vote for a constituency MP who (usually) represents a party. The parties all have leaders and the leader of the winning party becomes the Prime Minister. So no-one voted for Tony B-liar as Prime Minister, no-one voted for Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister.
Now, do you understand about putting crosses in boxes, or does someone have to explain that to you?
I’d also take issues with Brown being a ‘dimwit’, being the possessor of a first class honours MA and a PhD and previously having been employed as a lecturer at Glasgow College of Technology and a tutor for the Open University.

How can you listen to a transcript of a telephone call, Goldbug?

I certainly READ it.

She said there were 25 errors. He said there weren’t. (Actually, she said there ‘was’ 25 errors. But hey, let’s not nitpick)

Brown was right. There were not 25 errors. As pointed out earlier, the errors highlighted by the Sun – because their readers couldn’t do it themselves, presumably – centred on a few missing Es and the honest mistake of confusing an ‘M’ with an ‘N’.

Explain to me how Brown is an ‘unelected dimwit’?

I distinctly remember him being elected into his constituency in 2005. That was a fact. The British electoral system does not elect a Prime Minister. We choose our MPs as according to our constituency.

That’s how it works.

Now, if you don’t mind, I have another use for my tongue, and it involves a cup of tea and a sandwich.

This idea of Gordon Brown being unelected is so idiotic – he is the elected member of parliament for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. We don’t vote for members of the cabinet, we vote for members of parliament. Tony Blair wasn’t elected as PM, he was elected as an MP and then the Labour Party made him party leader and therefore PM. Brown’s authority as PM is the same as any other. And by the way, pick up a PhD history book, or any economics book past A-level, have a read, and then call him a dimwit.

Having said that I’m not at all into Labour, but you really need to pick your fights, otherwise you look like a dimwit yourself, and people will ignore you when (if) you make a reasonable point.

enzyme,

He was elected as an MP not as PM. There is a difference in case you had not noticed.

And it does matter because we have been saddled with arguably the most pathetic moron PM this country has ever known, and his inability to admit his errors is a fatal flaw.

But hey you vote for the fucker at the next election though it wont much matter because he history – thank heavens.

Just on the point of electing. When we go to the next election we will vote for the party that we want to run the country and whoever is leader of that party. You don’t vote for a party that has a leader you don’t want.
The last time we voted for Tony Blair not Gordon Brown. At the next General Election I won’t be voting for a local MP I will be voting for whichever the best party and their leader is that can get us out of this mess we are in.

@goldbug – what’s your opinion on the sun getting the spelling of the name wrong?

Intersting to note (see e.g. todays Times) the amount of non Labour sympathy for the PM in all this. As one writer puts it, the British public don’t enjoy watching the wings being pulled off flies. This has been an unedifying spectacle – the public humilation of a man (no he isn’t my favorite politican either – I was a Blair man) trying to do his best.

Lee

But that’s the point. Even though Labour hate the memory of Bliar, he could win elections, unlike Brown.

And no i think the party system is broken fundamentally because its clear that mps represent their party first and foremost, and the electorate is more or less ignored.

The idea of whips is a disgrace to the idea of democracy.

So no i rather vote for an individual i feel will actually do something useful as opposed to a party full of yes-men.

Personally, I’m going to vote for the candidate who will represent my constituency to the best effect. Regardless of party. That IS how it is supposed to be done.

Nobody outside of Sedgefield and Trimdon voted for Tony Blair.

Stop slaggin off the sun. It’s doing a great job, providing you lot with news to brighten up your sorry lives.Your’re’re lucky your’re’re not paying to read these great stories by these wonderful jooornalists. Damn and blast!

Forget about the letter – you only have to listen to the phone conversation and watch Mrs Janes interview yesterday.
If anyone was manipulated it was the Sun.
She knows what she is talking about, she said even today soldiers are still having to buy their own equipment ie heavier boots, thicker jackets, etc.
This to me is the real story.

Ray,

Terrible that the SUN made that error. Spank them :-)

On the other hand they are not pretending to run the country.

On the other hand they are not pretending to run the country.

Pfft!

It is indeed Brown’s job to ‘run the country’. But it’s the job of The Sun’s journalists and subs to spell things correctly, even when the story isn’t manufactured bullshit about insensitive wazzocks who can’t spell proppa.

I don’t wanna be nice ,understanding,compassionate and fair to Gordon Brown,and his LibLabCon,Common Purpose,Voter Import by stealth,Sharia compliant,E.U.Polit Buro,Guardian,B.B.C,Pravda,Censorship by Ommision,Incremental Ethnic Cleansing,Career Mercenary Apparatchik Quangoist,Treacherous,Quisling,Lord-Haw-Haw,Embezzeling,Trotskyite,Axis of Evil,Anti-Democratic,Mafiosa.

No Queensbury rules,no gloves,no quarter,groin kicks,head butts,elbows,head locks,no forgiveness,no mercy,no surrender.

Phew!…that feels better.

Irene,

I totally agree. One has to admire and respect a MUm like her who creates a masive stink about the lack of proper equipment provided for our armed forces.

I thought what was really shocking was Brown trying to bring the premature death of his child into the equation. His point that its hard to get over these things was really patronising and meant to belittle her concerns.

He is a sick fuck.

Different people have different criteria when voting. The majority probably vote for the representative of the national party whose policies they broadly agree with the most. Some may vote for the politician themselves. Others may engage in tactical voting – i.e. voting for the local candidate most likely to defeat the candidate / party they don’t like who’s most likely to win the seat.

As for Gordon’s alleged incompetence, bear in mind the media have had their knives out for him from day 1 – probably at least partially because he’s (a) an introvert, (b) doesn’t enjoy being in the media spotlight, and (c) didn’t hire an official spokesman to to the PR job on his behalf (possibly after seeing the public’s loathing of Alistair Campbell).

But I have to ask – would The Blue Party have fared any better in similar combinations of circumstances? Would they have resolutely told the truth and swore never to lie, misinterpret or misinform? Many of the more outrageous expenses stories came from their members – remember duck houses and moat cleaning bills?

I seem to recall The Blue Party were incredibly unpopular amongst the voting public (and media) back in 1997 – just as The Red Party seem to be now. Perhaps it’s worth looking beyond the rhetoric, spin and lies of both of ‘em and work out not so much which would be best for the country, but (since both are likely to foul up the country even further), who’d foul it up the least?

The Red Party want to impose mandatory ID cards and spend ever increasing quantities of money on keeping the banks alive.
The Blue Party want to spend as little money as possible and dismantle state education (allowing any school to become an Academy and opt out of nationally agreed pay & conditions agreements, as well as the national curriculum).

Sy,

Amazing you are more concerned about the incompetence of the SUN relative to the incomeptence of the prick running our country.

Says it all really.

“He was elected as an MP not as PM. There is a difference in case you had not noticed.”

You mean like every other Prime Minister in history? This is not America.

He leads the party with the most MPs, an elected majority. He has won successive elections himself.

He is elected, and just as elected as any before him.

Goldbug, I see you wrote of Brown that “he history”.

Is that patois, or are you just too incompetent to write?

mittfh,

I certainly am not saying the Tories are guaranteed to be any better, and i am sick of party politics in general as i feel it is a betrayal of the true principles of democracy as introduced into human civilisation by the Greeks.

The problem lay with the whole political class today. Observe how they are about to renege on the reform to mps expenses.

We are the mugs because we accept this system of paqssing power from one buch of pricks to another bunch of assholes – almost all of them only looking out for their own self-interests.

This is not a true democracy.

mittfh,

I’m with you… my vote is going to go to the party that I think is going to screw it up the least.
I’m sure none of them deliberately go out to destroy the country it’s just incompetence that gets them there and Brown seems to like the being at the forefront of incompetence. We saw he didn’t do much better as chancelllor and now has to take full responsibilty as Tony deserted the sinking ship.
However I do feel that either pary wouldnlt think twice about considering a particular policy to win points or win votes over the best path for the country.
So my next question is would a politician choose certain paths and policies knowing that it will make it harder for the opposition when they get to power knowing they are going to lose power themselves

I am greatly pleased by the overall public response to the Sun’s attack on Brown. It maybe, just, maybe, that the grip on the public mind of the Murdoch Sun is passing. Overdue, but welcome.

I do wish some of the posters above would explain the grounds for their thoughts, if that is possible. As to Brown’s antipathy to Defence this must be a reference his lack of enthusiasm for Typhoon, the QE class carriers and sundry other programmes all approved by HMG in his days as Chancellor.

The MoD ordered hugely expensive helicopters and forgot to train aircrew to pilot them, one of their less expensive gaffs of recent years. Over decades the MoD has under performed even average levels of competence with ease and I personally blame the Defence Staff for this; they are out of their depth when it comes to managing very complex programmes and are easily swayed by salesmen and their own ‘catalogue’ buying habits. Brown knows this better than anyone having had to pay the bills on our behalf. If he regards the Defence chiefs with jaundice he is in good company – read Alan Clark on his time as a junior minister at MoD. He hardly qualifies as one of Goldberg’s “lefty t***s”.

anyone can use photoshop to make those images…. fail!

@ Goldbug: “i feel it is a betrayal of the true principles of democracy as introduced into human civilisation by the Greeks”

The ‘true’ democracy that would only allow adult “full-blooded” males (not women, not the foreign-born) to vote?

At the next General Election I won’t be voting for a local MP I will be voting for whichever the best party and their leader is that can get us out of this mess we are in.

The disastrous flaw of the parliamentary system (vs. the presidential, i.e. a separate executive branch), and one very good reason why you lot may never get of your mess.

@Goldbug

Keep digging. You’re funny.

Jako,

“Goldbug, appalling spelling and grammar as displayed by the likes of yourself [...]”

^ Incorrect use of the reflexive!

Seriously, it’s time people on this thread stopped badgering each other over bad grammar UNLESS you can properly employ it yourself.

^ Correct use of the reflexive!

Miller,

No, because the Labour party did not elect him to be their leader. PMs are elected by their party to lead the party… usually.

Being that the general public doesn’t get a direct say and that I am not a member of the Labour party I’m not terribly fussed, but that is still the fact of the matter.

I see I have written ‘Goldberg’ instead of ‘Goldbug’. I do apologise and I mean that most sincerely.

mittfh,

Bang on I would say, particularly the point you make about the media being after Brown from day One. I wonder why? Some of the reasons you put forward seem plausible but I think novelty is another. We are told what to do and think by a political-jornalist-media elite, consultants and millionaire comedians, who will prosper whomever is in power. Christina Odone (and she would know) has detailed the frequently surprising ramifications of relationships and alligences that are commonplace in the world’s of politics, journalism and increasingly the media – televison and public relations – including, ironically, both Mrs Brown and Mrs Cameron.

It’s hilarious the amount of comments about the fact i am a lazy writer on blogs. Let’s be clear just so you anal retentive types can understand _ i could not give a toss about correcting my own grammar or odd spelling mistake.

On the other hand if i was writing a letter of condolence i would make an effort not to insult the bereaved.

Some folks seem not to understand the difference in context.

@Lee

“I’m sure none of them deliberately go out to destroy the country”

Your not making my job any easier.

Right…repeat after me.
No Queensbury rules,no gloves,no quarter,groin kicks,head butts,
head locks,no forgiveness,no mercy,no surrender.

Don’t make me come over there Lee.

So, back to the topic: The Sun have embarrassed themselves by focussing on the letter itself and its errors, whilst making the same standard of errors itself. This has been, in the majority, an example of The Sun shooting itself in the foot, as most public sympathy with regards to the letter is with Gordon Brown and his eyesight problems. This has almost shown the bereaved mother in a negative light, which, I am sure, was not the intention of any party involved.

However, had The Sun been a paper worth reading, rather than sensationalist red-top rag, they would have concentrated on the actual issue that Mrs Janes was highlighting; that of provisions for our armed forces, which could have brought about a sensible debate and not some stupid circus akin to the fuss brought about by biscuits. There are more important things going on in this country than the PM’s handwriting, but it is certainly indicative of the influence the media have on the public!

What a silly miss-stake, Of course we all knew that, but the Sun need not have been so blatant.

“Seriously, it’s time people on this thread stopped badgering each other over bad grammar UNLESS you can properly employ it yourself.”

Absolutely, rather than our current usage of English being right, and our spellings fixed, those who whine on endlessly often cannot read. The number of times I have been told my spelling of a word is wrong when the Word could have been found in the dictionary had they looked is beyond my ability to recall. Grammer? The rules are more complex than many recall.

What a silly misstake, Of course we all knew, but the Sun need not have been so blatant.

“Seriously, it’s time people on this thread stopped badgering each other over bad grammar UNLESS you can properly employ it yourself.”

Absolutely, rather than our current usage of English being right, and our spellings fixed, those who whine on endlessly often cannot read. The number of times I have been told my spelling of a word is wrong when the Word could have been found in the dictionary had they looked is beyond my ability to recall. Grammer? The rules are more complex than many recall.

“There are more important things going on in this country than the PM’s handwriting, ….”
Tell that to Mrs Janes who considered it very important in light of her sons death. I know I would of considered it important just as Mrs Janes did.

Those old soldiers in wheelchairs are totally disrespectful for not standing to the national anthem. They should be euthanised immediately.

Lee,
I agree it was important to Mrs Janes, but via The Sun, she has almost been presented in a bad light- as someone who is insensitive to somebody with an impairment.

My point is that the issue has clouded what she set out to achieve.

It’s funny to see Lee give lessons in respect. BNP loons like him go out of their way to insult people.

Please, write some more poetry, Lee. You know, “dragons vomiting foetid foetuses of liberal lies” and the other shit you pen. Did the psychiatrist suggest poetry was cathartic and would stop you self harming?

“Goldbug, appalling spelling and grammar as displayed by the likes of yourself [...]”

^ Correct use of the reflexive!

hoist bye me own pettard

I am a Tory, and still think this Sun story is a ridiculous hatchet job.

“It’s funny to see Lee give lessons in respect. BNP loons like him go out of their way to insult people.

Please, write some more poetry, Lee. You know, “dragons vomiting foetid foetuses of liberal lies” and the other shit you pen. Did the psychiatrist suggest poetry was cathartic and would stop you self harming?”

BNP… Did I miss something, what planet do you live on. Good constructive comment Dan, you must congratulate yourself not only on your incorrect assumption but on how stupid it makes the rest of your comment look.
Also those brave heros and soldiers in wheelchairs don’t enter decathalons because they can’t and are not expected to!!! So what you mean by “Those old soldiers in wheelchairs are totally disrespectful for not standing to the national anthem. They should be euthanised immediately.” I have no idea but shows your own ignorance and disrespect.

The fact is that Brown has personally hand-written private letters of condolence to all relatives of service personnel killed under his administration. I’m not sure whether this is usual procedure, but he has not flaunted it as a PR stunt. No-one knew he did this.

Hand-writing can be idiosyncratic even when the writer has no visual impairment. My hand-writing is terrible, in part because I’m thinking more about what I am writing than the way I am writing. And my hand-writing has got worse with typing on a computer; I rarely write by hand any more. Nothing to do with disrespect.

Dan,
Exactly… you don’t handwrite letters because you can’t (!?!?). If you can’t do something well don’t bother doing at all…. which should especially be true as PM.
Nobody knew he did this?? Come on!
Find an alternative to poor spelling with crayons, like a personally typed letter with personal signature or learn to write.

Wow, Foldbug. You said that people voted for ‘Bliar’. Good job. How’s your eyesight?

Wow, Goldbug. You said that people voted for ‘Bliar’. Good job. How’s your eyesight?

Lee: Why on earth does Nick Griffin think you can provide top notch legal advice when you are such a prick? Please, write a poem and give us all a laugh, you ugly twat.

Dan,
I really have no idea what you are on about re BNP, legal advice and poems but if it makes you feel better then run with it and get the anger out!?!?
Also great to see you provide another constructive post, you must be so proud.
The ironic thing is I have never voted as I have yet to see any individual or party that yet inspires me enough to put pen to paper (no pun intended)
You still angry Dan!?!?!?

I especially love this poem, Lee: http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2008/09/dragon-and-darkness.html

You moan about Gordon Brown’s handwriting, but how do you defend this bullshit?

I’ve never seen it before it my life and I clicked it on it took one look and looked like too many words for me..
Control your anger Dan, I’m a marketing consultant from North Wales but i am having a laugh hopefully not too much at your expense.
And breathe dan…..

It’s one of the things drummed into journalists is that you make sure you get people’s names right. Assuming this error on the Sun’s website is genuine; the person responsible will be lucky to still be in a job. It’s jaw droppingly idiotic; as was Brown’s initial decision to cross out his errors and send a scrawl.

No one really comes out of this at all well. I’m sure Brown meant well in sending the letter, but that’s not good enough. The decision to send such an error strewn scrawl and correct his misspelling in the manner of a sulky child writing a Christmas thank-you letter was crass, thoughtless and insulting. His decision to ring up Mrs Janes and berate her for not being able to read his writing, give her the ever insulting “I’m sorry if you’re offended” non apology (and deny the obvious fact that he had made spelling mistakes) tells you a lot about the man.

We have all of us, I am sure, deeply upset people by thoughtless actions. It’s whether you apologise gracefully or seek to deny any blame that is the real mark of your character.

Lee: I am really sorry, I mistook you for Lee John Barnes, a racist anti-semitic asshole who works as the BNP’s legal director. He often comments here and sometimes I like to wind him up about his atrocious poetry. I shouldn’t assume that anyone called Lee commenting on HP is Lee John Barnes. Sorry again.

I fink dat its terribel that we have all wasted so much time monee and Efort pointin out otherz miztakes (like in this blog) when like gud chrischuns we shud look at rselves. I rememba when it woz the fort witch counted, in witch case Gertrude Brawn PM woz tryin to do a gud fing, innit?
I reckon Geldbog blogga bloke has a bee in his bonnet though, innit?
He probablee agrees wif me dat becoz of wot happened b4 we shud vote 4 Jade Goodys Mum Jackie 2 b PM coz she is probablee da bestest person 4 da job coz she had a dorter like Jade.

Dan, no worries, I can say without doubt that I am not him (not even heard of him to be honest) and this was my 1st post on here.

I suppose I should say that was an excellent apology with excellent spelling ;)

@Enzyme – while your pontificating about the UK constitution, I guess I should point out that we don’t have one.

I agree with your point though.

Lee: I could organise a press conference, speaking of my regret with watery eyes and a breaking, wavering voice.

So, back to the topic: The Sun have embarrassed themselves by focussing on the letter itself and its errors, whilst making the same standard of errors itself. This has been, in the majority, an example of The Sun shooting itself in the foot, as most public sympathy with regards to the letter is with Gordon Brown and his eyesight problems

I see the 10 Downing Street drones are out in force today.

“sympathy” for McBean? You must be having a fucking laugh.

@Dan

“Lee:I am really sorry,I mistook you for Lee John Barnes.”

I was wondering when the penny was going to drop.
Poor Lee walked into a mine-field.Suggest name change immidiately.As in—NotLeeJohnBarnes

Dan, it has been customary for Prime Ministers to write such letters by hand for quite a while now. I believe that Margaret Thatcher introduced the practice at the time of the Falklands war and that both John Major and Tony Blair maintained the custom.

I thought Lee John Barnes was more mild-mannered than usual, devoid of mad accusations, and thought that he must have just had his tranquiliser injection. It wasn’t him after all. And I looked like the dolt. Doh!

Sorry, I saw this and decided I had to call Goldbug a cunt. Here goes! You’re a cunt.

Dan, I thought you would have had me at “BNP… Did I miss something, what planet do you live on” ;)

It could of been worse… You never called me a cunt ala The Truth, just an ugly twat and you could be right on that one!!

The Truth,

Ohh you big man! What a tough guy, calling me a cunt. Neener neener.

@NotLeeJohnBarnes

Nah..he played that trick dozens of times.Nobody’s going to fall for that one.
Oh well,get ready fro another bashing Lee.

LeefromWales is probably a better name to use. The less Barnes is known about, the better.

Surely someone must have mentioned this but I have not seen it in the msm, not that I have followed this in any detail: What Mrs J did in recording and distributing the tape without Brown’s knowledge and consent is surely an offence under the Data Protection Act? And the Sun then publishing this unauthorised transcript is also in breach of the Act? Not saying she should be prosecuted, but it should be pointed out.

If only spelling was the limit of Gordo’s failings. What he’s done to this country is a travesty (both as CE and PM). And no doubt he’ll saunter off to the Lords. I guess the amount of damage he can do from there will be limited. He is one PM who won’t be missed by anybody.

Could we do away with the mud-slinging and get back to the key points?
1. Brown as PM (legitimately so, because he is an elected MP) is bound to get the blame whenever things go wrong. It’s called “knock the incumbent” and everybody loves doing it. But it’s a simplistic cop-out at the best of times. The Cabbage Patch Doll Cameron wouldn’t be in a much better situation had he been in power for as long as the Labour leadership, I’ll warrant. The quality of Brown’s writing and spelling are entirely immaterial to his effectiveness as PM (although I suspect that Winston Churchill might take me to task on that point).
2. The death of any soldier is tragic. However, nobody twisted this particular young man’s arm to enlist, and war + soldier = a heightened probability of death.
3. We feel for the mother’s pain. Fury and irrationality are inevitable corollaries of grief. She should have been allowed to vent her pain anger without fear of their amplification and publicisation. Despite my compassion for her pain, she failed to convince me at any point. Her arguments during that infamous phone conversation were unconvincing and full of non sequiturs. Furthermore, as a bereaved mother she had an unfair advantage. One cannot argue robustly and objectively with such a person unless one wishes to become the next target for irrational hate mail.
5. The Sun can only be described as a grisly little rag run by a bunch of opportunistic cynics, and their journalistic incompetence is second only to their hypocrisy. So: business as usual there, then.
6. My sympathy lies squarely with the dead soldier (who, I’d lay odds, would be mortified if he knew what a hoohah has blown up around his demise) and with Gordon Brown, who suffers from a severe visual disability but despite that goes to the trouble of penning individual notes to families, for which I admire him. This well-intentioned act was unfortunately snapped up by a less than appreciative audience in this case, and a few writing errors
exaggerated to a ludicrous degree by the entirely self-serving Sun.
7. I fear for the sanity of our nation: 2 million people pick up the Sun daily and are guided by it; evidently not the country’s greatest critical thinkers.
OK, that’s my view. If you would like to comment please eschew gratuitous obscenities and insults.
Long live democracy.
PS It may interest you to know that I don’t vote Labour.

BTW I failed to number my 4th point, which starts at: “Her arguments…” etc.

‘As to Brown’s antipathy to Defence this must be a reference his lack of enthusiasm for Typhoon, the QE class carriers and sundry other programmes all approved by HMG in his days as Chancellor.’

It’s not antipathy towards ‘defence’. It’s antipathy towards the military. There’s a difference between getting annoyed about procurement fuck-ups and wondering if the money has been better spent elsewhere, and treating service personnel like shit.

Also, bear in mind your point about ‘his days as Chancellor’. Brown got a free pass from Polly Toynbee and other toadies, who in concentrating their ire on ‘Blair the war criminal’ decided that they’d forget about the Cabinet tradition of collective responsibility. If Brown’s problem is that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan constituted a drain on public expenditure, he had the option (in 2001 and 2003) of saying so and resigning. Instead, he kept mum but ensured that the forces were underresourced for both conflicts. Don’t expect me to admire him on either account.

Don’t worry about your spelling, dear boys and girls, but just try to say something that comes from your brains, your heart and your guts. With these three allies you are bound to slip up. Perfection is sterile. There should be a dialogue between you and your codified language.

(Boys and girls has a better rhythm and cadence to it than ‘girls and boys’)

Mistakes of all kinds proliferate on HP and other blogs, even in the leading articles.

Most of them are due to speed and typing slips and shorthand. I make the most appalling mistakes – when I know better – and this is due to age, worries and (a) HP horror news – how can you think straight after reading about barbarism – (b) because some commenters are capable of driving me (or each other) crazy. Sometimes you fingers run faster than your mdin (mind).

Much of the special character of one of our musical geniuses, Robert Schumann (whom most of don’t listen to), derives ftom his incomplete studies, his half-learnt counterpoint and a way of toppling over himself with sputnik speed, putting B before A., creating wonderful dissonances. Later when he learned his counterpoint (Bach language) properly, the standard of the compositions declined.

I know from working for publishers (no apostrophe here) that the spelling and grammatical errors of well-known authors had to be corrected. (Maybe they shouldn’t have been).

Someone said ‘don’t piss over Shakespeare’, well spelling was not codified in his time and he could spell as he pleased. So Sh. was pissing over himself. This may well be one of the reasons for his superlative greatness.

And Gordon Brown’s errors may be and indication of humanity.

I see the 10 Downing Street drones are out in force today.

“sympathy” for McBean? You must be having a fucking laugh.

http://page.politicshome.com/uk/the_backlash_voters_defend_gordon_brown_on_jacqui_janes_dispute.html

Nobody is having a laugh and you don’t have to be a drone. That’s what people actually think.

A different question – are pols getting attacked by soldiers’ mothers in other NATO countries? I don’t hear of it happening in the US (which is not to say it doesn’t happen, just that I don’t hear of it).

Condolences to the family of Chris Evans. His brave sacrifice, despite his lack of any modicum of talent has made Afghanistan a safer place for ginger people everywhere…

…oh, wait, it’s a mistake? Chris Evans is still alive? Dammit!

an indication

“It’s not antipathy towards ‘defence’. It’s antipathy towards the military. There’s a difference between getting annoyed about procurement fuck-ups and wondering if the money has been better spent elsewhere, and treating service personnel like shit.” – sackcloth and ashes 5.42 p.m.

You are not living up to your moniker at all.

There is no evidence to support your claim even allowing that an expletive denotes an idea which it might just be possible to express fully. But you do not require evidence and ideas are strangers to you. You have the prompting of your own prejudices alone.

I am not in the habit of responding to abuse. I make a concession only this once.

“Much of the special character of one of our musical geniuses, Robert Schumann (whom most of don’t listen to) …” Felix (Italy)

Oh, wonderful man! I listen to little else!

Brown’s contempt for the military is indisputable

As is his contempt for the electorate in general and for individual voters in particular.

Goldbug: Brown’s default mode is to lie, never mind argue when his myriad failings and incompetencies are pointed out. The man is not only an unelected twit: he is a complete disaster and has been from day one, not only but perhaps most seriously to our economy and to our sovereignty.

Gordon,

Just how the hell can you tell whether his default mode is to “lie”? Or for whom he holds contempt? You’ve been inside his head?

I suggest you keep your libellous comments to yourself and choose something more constructive to do.

is there a particular reason why so many of you swear in your posts? I presume it is general inadequacy but I wondered whether there are any additional explanations.

- We promise to go to the electorate about the Lisbon Treaty.

- Oops, we never actually PROMISED to go to the electorate about the Lisbon Treaty.

It’s called ‘lying’ in English.

Now eff off.

- We promise to go to the electorate about the Lisbon Treaty.

No, I think that was David C. Nu Lab promised a referendum on the EU constitution as was, but since that was changed for the Lisbon Treaty, they declared all bets off.

Cunning? Not really, but it’ll take something smarter than you to catch GB out. A turnip, perhaps.

The real story here is why the mass media broadcasters allowed a piss-poor rag run by a megalomaniacal Aussie to set the British news agenda for 3 days straight with a politically-motivated character assassination.

Seriously, I’ve seen more substance in a Goldbug comment!*

*No I haven’t.

Hey, it’s The Sun: a trashfest of selebs ‘n’ cynicism*, prolefeed of the worst kind and not to be taken seriously – how many of its, ahem, readership can even put an ‘X’ in the box?

Anything that damages the Murdoch brand is a good thing for democracy.

* cf Mail Online

‘There is no evidence to support your claim even allowing that an expletive denotes an idea which it might just be possible to express fully. But you do not require evidence and ideas are strangers to you. You have the prompting of your own prejudices alone’.

Larkers, you honestly think that the PM doesn’t have a problem with the forces as a whole (as opposed to defence procurement issues)? Do you believe in Father Christmas as well?

I can tell you as ex-forces, and someone who still works with the military, that Brown’s reputation with the armed forces is as low as snakeshit. I’m sorry that upsets you. It derives not just from underspend on operations, but also the systematic downgrading of accommodation for service families, the appointment of drones like Ainsworth for a crucial portfolio, the cutting to the bone of the training budget etc etc. If you can’t accept that, you can’t accept facts.

Are you ACTUALLY complaining about your PM’s spelling!? Aren’t there other more important matters to complain about? Who the hell cairs how he spells? If his policies are so bad it doesn’t matter how his writing looks like! You British are weird…

Isy – the English language is our gift to the world. To see our PM abuse it is horrifying…

(Yes, I know it was a proper noun he mis-spelled…)

Maybe Gordon Brown isn’t prime minister… Maybe he just spelled ‘MP’ wrong when writing down ‘occupation’…

Gregg

“…the English language is our gift to the world. To see our PM abuse it is horrifying…”

“Horrifying” is a bit over the top. G. Brown is probably more articulate than you or I in his language. Lying is another matter, but all politicians do that.

You’d be surprised at the abuse of our gift to the world that is going on. In the teaching of English to foreigners it has long been considered better for students to get by with mistakes so long as they make themselves understood, rather than for them to be bogged down and inhibited by the fear of being incorrect. More recently ‘global Englsih’ has been the fashion, which means almost anything goes and promotes a kind of pigeon English. (I’m not saying what I think of this and how I deal with it, as that would require an essay).

Larkers – Thanks for your Schumann signal which is heartening.

Isy – the English language is our gift to the world. To see our PM abuse it is horrifying…

He didn’t abuse it. At worst he mistook an uncommon surname for a very common one. You’d be far better saving your froth for an occasion that deserves it. People might actually believe you.

“I’m sorry that upsets you.” – sackcloth and ashes.

Poverty and cruelty upset me. Nothing else.

You are not the only ‘ex-services’ person I know. The problems such as they are are not new and I was told by a reliable source ‘nothing but nothing’ worked in the Falklands. Even the boots leaked, sixty years after the Somme!

You must face facts about your views. You have a visceral hatred of Brown, a man you do not know and who I can assure you knows a great deal more than of he speaks. I think the days of blank cheques for the military are over, have been since 1917.

Brown (and others of different political stripe) are ‘damned if they do and damned if the don’t’ by Murdoch, an Australian sometime British and now American newspaper billionaire with an extraordinary grip on this country’s throat. This foriegn ownership of the ‘country’s soul’ you objectivity support with endorsements.

I recommend you to the work of Mr Al Murray, the “Pub Landlord”. Murray catches exactly right those traits of bilious patriotism rapidly followed by maudlin sentimentality which, in my presence, the less gifted followers of the Right exhibit in the face of everyday reality.

As Mrs A said (sigh)

Abdul. If that Gordo Broon was Indian what caste would he be.
I think it would be very low down.

Would we let him in the shop Abdul ?

I feel sorry for his parents. Why didn’t they educate him so he could get a proper Job ?

However the conversation stops as I have to rush outside to stop nice BNP man being attacked by white liberals.

Peace be upon me.

My father was in the RAF for the best part of 40 years and now works as a civvy for the MoD in logistics.

There are a some incontrovertible truths:

The MoD is probably the most wasteful government department of them all. They have a history of project mismangement that makes the former EDS look efficient. There are multiple examples of the MoD ordering hardware that is obsolete before the ink has dried on the contract, and non-qualified executives ordering computer systems not fit for purpose. We are talking about sums running into hundreds of millions and even billions. Reforming the MoD is a nettle successuve governments have failed to grasp, but you can be certain that the government that does eventaully have the balls to do this will be spectacularly unpopular in the upper-echelons of the military (albeit your average grunt will be massively grateful). The point is that being unpopular with military top-brass is not necessarily a bad thing.

Today’s equipment for British service personnel is better than it ever has been and, apart from the Yanks who get the best of whatever they ask for when they ask for it, is superior or at least as good as the equipment enjoyed by every other western army. People who take their lead from talboid editors who wouldn’t know a RPG from a BFG and the understandable but misguided pronouncements of grieving relatives will be shocked to hear this, but it’s nevertheless true (and if you listen to COs and troops out there when they are asked, they say the same thing time and again). What problems there have been with equipment centre on logistics, getting kit to the front-line and its allocation once it’s there. With the best will in the world, this is not something a govt minister sitting in Westminster can do anything to influence.

The pay is still disgustingly low and the living arrangements sometimes unfit for human habitation, but a lack of equipment is not a feature in Afghanistan. There was a problem with helicopter numbers originally (albeit even this was hysterically overplayed) but by far the biggest issue is troop numbers. Some territory in Helmland has had to be taken half-a-dozen times because there is insufficient manpower to hold ground taken from the Taliban.

Bottom-line is that NATO needs to send more troops, or we should get out of there. I think it’s a battle worth fighting so I’d support the former strategy, but if this doesn’t happen then I’m not prepared to watch our soldiers dying as they fight war made unwinnable by decisions taken in European capitals far from the guts and the gore.

I’m starvin, dear kebab or cheap tree bark. Sod it it’s a recession, watch out tonsils.

Nu Lab promised a referendum on the EU constitution as was, but since that was changed for the Lisbon Treaty, they declared all bets off.

Which is called ‘lying’ in English.

Cunning? Not really, but it’ll take something smarter than you to catch GB out. A turnip, perhaps.

On which infantile and desperate note, Sy goes back to brown-nosing Brown, the worst PM in two centuries.

On which infantile and desperate note, Sy goes back to brown-nosing Brown, the worst PM in two centuries.

It’s a weird kinda brown-nosing that claims GB might be outwitted by a turnip, but hey, no one said you were normal Oxymoron.

You have a visceral hatred of Brown, a man you do not know

By their actions shall ye know them (shrug). Many of us have seen the scorched earth policy of this person as evidence of the sort of repellent liar and coward and vindictive, selfish hypocrite he is. We don’t need to have sat down to breakfast with him.

Having sat down to breakfast with Gordo, I noticed he ate his porridge with Salt as opposed to sugar which reminded me that of course he wasn’t English in the first place, so it made it all the more easier for me to forgive him his spelling discrepancy in light of him not being English and therefore not actually governing you all in his mother tongue.

Bravo Larkers! A good letter above.

I note with some puzzlement that this potentially defamatory post hasn’t been taken down yet. If true, it would suggest that The Sun has committed the sort of insensitive blunder that it has already condemned as unforgivable, adding the insult of hypocrisy to the injury of negligence and gross insensitivity. This would surely tend to lower the estimation of The Sun in the estimation of right-thinking people and even expose the paper to hatred, contempt and ridicule.

I am therefore at a loss to understand why News International has taken no legal action to protect its reputation in this case. Perhaps the corporation is in such desperate financial straits that it can’t afford to pursue the matter (this would explain why poor Mr Murdoch is so keen to start charging for on-line content). It’s distressing to think of needy, vulnerable and disadvantaged publications such as The Sun being exposed to such merciless ridicule and I’m seriously thinking of starting a fighting fund to help them out. I think I’ll call it “Media Tycoon Aid”. I know there’s a recession on, but in times like these, desperate tabloids need our help and support more than ever.

Yes, that must be what has happened. The alternative explanation – that The Sun is guilty as charged – is quite unthinkable, given the paper’s unsullied reputation for fair, scrupulous and accurate reporting, with not so much as a suspicion of bias, malice or sensationalism. Shame on you, you bully! Go and pick on someone your own size.

Warning: This comment has been prepared in a household that uses sarcasm, so cannot be guaranteed sarcasm-free

Guilty as charged indeed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/nov/13/sun-apologises-misspelling-soldier