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Jews are News.

“Despite wielding great influence among the highest realms of British politics and media, little is known about the individuals and groups which collectively are known as the pro-Israel lobby.”

Well, if you didn’t actually ask any of them anything…

Its a fact that Toys ‘R’ Us mainly sell toys and they leave the selling of jet engines to British Aerospace and Rolls Royce.

What I mean is that all things exist for the purpose that they are created. A Pro-Israel Lobby supports Israel, a pro-Arab Lobby supports Arabs and a pro-Muslim Lobby supports terrorism, oops, supports Muslim interests.

Whenever I confront people who want to engage in Holocaust Denial or Revision I ask “Why?. You aren’t a historian who has an interest in The Holocaust. So what is your interest? Why do you care?”

Its the same with this program. Why does anyone care unless you are going to expose underhand tactics and bribes in high places.

By describing this as a program that wants to examine how a lobby group operates and lobbies for the interests “of foreign powers” it automatically conveys “Jews aren’t loyal to the UK”. It creates a “Fifth Column” concept.

Since Britain was in favour of the creation of Israel and since Israel is under constant threat of attack then surely the possibility that Jews might wish to be advocates on its behalf isn’t mysterious as it is the one and only Jewish National Home. Its as if they attack Jews wherever they live and attack them when they choose to live in a place where they won’t suffer antisemitism.

What about a program about Jews who lobby AGAINST Israel like Independent Jewish Voice?

Its just going to be food for the Antisemites. Can I guess that Jenny Tonge, Galloway etc will be appearing?

Interesting that Channel Four wa saccused by the police (wrongly) of inciting racial hatred. I wonder what the outcome of this program will be. Perhaps British Jews might take the opportunity to check when their passports expire.

Gene, any American Jews thinking about Operation Noah’s Ark for UK Brits? Get me a ticket!

8pm local… Seeing as it’s only one of the powerful and influential lobbies at work in Britain, I’m wondering when the others will get their moment in the spotlight.

One second – the press release talks about examining how the lobby operates, but Poju Zabludowicz says they have said they will “expose” it. That’s quite a leap.

I might go to my doctor for an examination, but this doesn’t mean he’ll expose me.

Despite wielding great power, and bankrolled from unknown sources, little is actually known about this mysterious group, The Jews.

In the service of foreign powers, virtually a law unto themselves, few have probed into how and why they seek to shape debate and international foreign policy.

Now, for the first time, we shine a light onto this obscure and opaque group.

From Darkness into Light, we bring you Revelation.

Now translate into the 21st century and, Eh voila, C4 Dispatches.

“I might go to my doctor for an examination, but this doesn’t mean he’ll expose me.”

If he insinuates you are secretive and illicit, in the service of foreign power, rather than working in the interests of your own state, he would be.

Here’s a program Dispatches likely will never air: Arabists in the FCO and their influence on the 4th estate and MPs

Also, Neil, your doctor would be straight with you, and ask questions to your face. He wouldn’t refuse to see you, or refuse to tell you what he thought was wrong with you when you asked him.

Dispatches investigates one of the most powerful and influential [Protocols - Jewish Power] political lobbies in Britain, which is working in support of the interests of the State of Israel.

Its the whole Protocols deal – Money, Power, Influence, Control the Media.

Here’s a program Dispatches likely will never air: Arabists in the FCO and their influence on the 4th estate and MPs

This may not have been Dispatches, but there was a documentary on Channel 4 of equivalent prominence a couple of years back that more or less did exactly that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jul/09/terrorism.religion

Im shocked and appalled that Dispatches arent doing ANOTHER expose of Muslims in this country

I predict that the program will show that major politicians have friends who are rich Jews. It will then become a crime in the court of public opinion to knowingly associate with a Jew who is rich otherwise you risk the taint of having been corrupted by that Jew.

You have to wonder why the Foreign Secretary Miliband seems so ANTI-Israel. Where are there examples of Israel NOT being criticised by the Government?

If Ch4 goes on to suggest that the RIGHT thing to do would be to do X but a politician did Y instead because he’s mates with a Jew then that sets up Ch4 as an arbiter of what is correct foreign policy and not our elected politicians.

Jews should be barred from earning money. All funds above £10,000 should be confiscated. No Jew must associate with a member of Parliament. Members of Parliament must report ANY contact they have with a Jew. No Jew must be found within 2 miles of Parliament. All Jews working in the media can be lawfully sacked without compensation.

Jews will wear striped clothing and a Yellow Star……….

Well when the New Nuremberg laws come to Europe you can be sure it will be with the most heartfelt Nanny State concern imaginable. We needs ‘camps’ to ‘protect’ the Jews from the populace. In my lifetime one European nation will bar residency of Jews, again. I am sure of it.

It’s a good job us Jews control the media, because we can stop programmes which expose our control of international politics being made.

Dispatches is the crew that brought us Undercover Mosque which is available on YouTube. I mention that for the benefit of all the loons who think that there is a conspiracy to get their favourite settler shithole.

We keep hearing about this ISRAEL LOBBY.

So, the fuck, what?

It’s not like Muslims and Arabs don’t have their advocates and lobbyists. I just Israel wielded more influence in this country, then cunts like Lord Ahmed & Baroness Tonge might be corrected and exposed at every opportunity.

Well, Venichka has point. Maybe I was wrong. We shall see.

But the Muslim Brotherhood, with whose affiliates that documtary asserts the FO consults, does not work for any specific state other than a putative Islamic superstate.

John Bloxham,

“Im shocked and appalled that Dispatches arent doing ANOTHER expose of Muslims in this country”

I’m not aware they have ever done a documentary about opaque, wealthy or influential Arabs or Muslims in the service of foreign powers attempting to shape debate or British foreign policy at the highest levels.

Further, when has Anglo-Arab or Muslim sympathy for Palestinian Christians or Muslims ever been subject to like treatment from C4?

But it looks like Anglo-Jewish pro-active sympathy for Israel is about to publicly lambasted as secretive, dishonest and illicit.

What I want to know is when there is going to be a Channel 4 documentary about the lobies of Tajikistan, Switzerland, Serbia, Bulgaria and El Salvador, all countries with similar populations.

What is the word for someone who is pro the existence of Switzerland….bloody Helveticans….they’re everywhere!

….with their chocolate, those silly little penknives, particle accelerators, domestic fallout shelters, highly militarized society with an assault rifle for every male and their impeccable time-keeping….The BASTARDS.

Well time Channel four sorted them out.

“I mention that for the benefit of all the loons who think that there is a conspiracy to get their favourite settler shithole.”

The equivalent of Undercover Mosque is Undercover Synagogue.

But thanks for confirming you think the latter=Israel or an FSSH.

C4 could have investigated Jewish groups that make extreme Zionist or racist claims.

But now it looks like it is stigmatising any Jews who lobby HMG on Israel’s behalf, without distinction. I wonder if C4 will cut BICOM any slack for lobbying for a two state solution, unlike George Galloway or much of PSC.

But we shall see.

It may have a positive upshot. Perhaps they will be as rigorous now with PSC and the ISM.

In any case, it looks like the power of the British pro-Israel Jewish lobby is broke ope forever i.e. any effort of British Jews to counter the effect of the far more numerous British Israel haters is effectively diminished.

Well, I doubt that will serve to make Israeli Jews feel any less isolated or desperate. It is likely to take more extreme measures in self-preservation, not less.

Imagine George Galloway in a government cabinet, or higher.

Israel would think she is staring at Adolph Hitler reborn.

It will also serve to make British Jews more isolated, not less. I feel a chill.

Jeez. What’s next? A serialization of the Protocols?

The people who run this pro-Israel lobby should be sacked. They’re not too effective.

Did you see the Guardian piece today entitled “Israel supporters accused of false allegations in campaign to discredit human rights watchdog”?
Common theme…

Funnily enough, I emailed the BBC a few weeks ago to ask if maybe – since they give so much time (and our money) to Adam Curtis’ silly ‘documentaries’ – they might for a change do something along the lines of Norman Cohn’s ‘Warrant for Genocide’. Haven’t had a reply as yet, and they’re usually so quick!

zkharya,

In the four year that I have run my blog I think that I can count on one hand the number of times that I have mentioned the shithole. As with the Arabs in French Algeria and the blacks in Rhodesia, I am quite happy to leave the locals to free Palestine and turf the Europeans out.

Since I am forced by law to subscribe over
£100 per annum to the anti Israel lobby, I am
glad to hear that there is work being done to
counteract the BBC & its hostile attitudes.

To refine the above, in case of misunderstanding,
we need an Israeli lobby.
More than at any time in the last 50 years.

Exile- The Europeans? So these folk can stay then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

but there was a documentary on Channel 4 of equivalent prominence a couple of years back that more or less did exactly that.

I was referring to Arabists in the FCO and their influence on MPs and the fourth estate, whereas the Martin Bright documentary was dealing with MB Islamists with whom the FCO was consulting. Not quite the exact same thing.

I don’t know what that means, Exile. Your pronouncements resemble the excrement which so often coats your silver tongue.

Silver fingers, as I tap the keyboard, surely?

I can’t presume to know anything about British politics and how much influence this Israeli lobby has on your government.

Being the cynical person that I am, I’d have to say that this whole system of lobbies means that no politician/elected representative/official and even some organizations have any ideology or agenda of their own but are simply funded by this or that lobby group. Thus, I read an Observer article (I think) a long time back that said something like: “Obama defeated the Israeli Lobby” because of something Obama did that was against Israeli interests (can’t remember exactly what, but I think it was connected to the settlement freeze or something). After reading the article I thought to myself: why has he “defeated” one lobby instead of simply giving in to another one (Saudi Arabian)?

In any case, I think any Israeli lobby (and even Jewish lobbies – i.e. lobbies that work for the Jewish community in the specific country), especially in the US, and also some Jewish/Zionist organizations and charities, have more influence on Israeli government than in their own country’s government.

http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/an-open-letter-peter-oborne-and-channel-four

My Open Letter to Channel 4.

I am starting a new group called DABSBO (Distraught At Being Snubbed By Oborne)

Watch for the Facebook page and the T-shirt …

Only if your intellect resides in your fingers.

Amusingly enough, the Google cache of Oborne’s Wikipedia page reads

Peter Alan Oborne (born 11 July 1957) is an English journalist, political commentator and far right-wing Thatcherite twat.

lols

Judging by who they wanted to interview, it is right to be concerned about this programme. Remember Walt/Mearsheimer? This may well be the British version. Watch for allegations of non-transparency and non-British influence on British politicians. The production team barged their way uninvited into an office in Israel. Watch for innuendoes about wealthy Jews acring as a cabal. This could be very nasty indeed.

The redeeming feature is that there is an independent recording of one of the main interviews; that there is nothing to hide; and that the British government has been hostile to Israel, so the ‘Lobby’ if there is one has been singularly unsuccessful.

Despite wielding great influence among the highest realms of British politics and media, little is known about the individuals and groups which collectively are known as the pro-Israel lobby.

Given the attitude to Israel in the Foreign Office, BBC and major newspapers, perhaps it is right that this pro-Israeli lobby is little-known.

7.9 Before broadcasting a factual programme, including programmes examining past events, broadcasters should take reasonable care to satisfy themselves that:

material facts have not been presented, disregarded or omitted in a way that is unfair to an individual or organisation; and
anyone whose omission could be unfair to an individual or organisation has been offered an opportunity to contribute.

7.10 Programmes – such as dramas and factually-based dramas – should not portray facts, events, individuals or organisations in a way which is unfair to an individual or organisation.

7.11 If a programme alleges wrongdoing or incompetence or makes other significant allegations, those concerned should normally be given an appropriate and timely opportunity to respond.

7.12 Where a person approached to contribute to a programme chooses to make no comment or refuses to appear in a broadcast, the broadcast should make clear that the individual concerned has chosen not to appear and should give their explanation if it would be unfair not to do so.

7.13 Where it is appropriate to represent the views of a person or organisation that is not participating in the programme, this must be done in a fair manner.

I’ve quite a bit of time for Peter Oborne, for despite his anti-Peter Mandelson obsession he has done some very good work on Zimbabwe and made a really excellent documentary about the Basil d’Oliveira affair a few years ago. As the programme hasn’t gone out yet, it may be best to refrain from comment save for this aspect: the programme purports to investigate “how accountable, transparent and open to scrutiny the lobby is”.

Lobbies are not decision-makers and do not have to be accountable. To take another lobby at random, no-one expects the campaigners against artificial baby milk to be accountable to anyone. The same applies on whether they are open to scrutiny. Decision-makers, Ministers and so on, are open to scrutiny because their decisions need to be scrutinized. Those who are trying to persuade them do not have to open themselves to scrutiny if they don’t want to.

Transparency is a legitimate issue – lobbies should be reasonably open about who is involved in them. But it’s not exactly rocket science to work out that Jewish businesspeople want good relations with Israel and if that is all that has been uncovered I look forward to next week’s episode announcing the discovery that bears have been despoiling some very arboreal places.

His D’Oliveira book is excellent

Rather unsurprisingly this story is also being ‘discussed’ over on Stormfront and there is some rambling nonsense on LJB’s blog as well, which appears to be regarding this story. Is Channel 4 aiming for a new demographic?

Peter Oborne is a p***. Yes he writes for the Daily Mail, and is obviously from a private school. Some of his journalism is good. However, since he decided to rather patronisingly take up the mantle of defender of the poor downtrodden Muslims, he has become bizarre.

He did a TV show on the way Muslims were misrepresented in the media. However, though he produced a few examples of stories in the media that were error-laden or unproven, he then extrapolated – extremely dishonestly – that all negative stories were there because of bias and Islamophobia. One or two of his claims were actually wrong.

At the same time he wrote a piece in the Independent (interestingly NOT in the Daily Mail) in which he claimed that Islamophobia is the new “British disease.” Muslims had no protections and were “vulnerable, rendering them open to ignorant and hostile commentary from mainstream figures.”

Oborne compared Islamophobia with anti-Semitism, at around the same time that Osama Saeed was again declaring that Muslims were being treated in Britain as badly as Jews were in 1930s Germany. I wrote an article exposing the fallacies of both viewpoints:
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.551/pub_detail.asp

As a result of this, in July 2008 I was invited to appear on Maurice Boland’s show on Radio Europe Mediterraneo, via phone. Oborne was to be on, and the plan had been for me to debate with him the points he was making.

On the day of the interview, I was told half an hour before I was due to talk, that Oborne had declared that he refused to go on air at the same time as myself. As a result, I had to wait for more than half an hour listening to the show,waiting for him to become available.

He was not around when he was originally contacted and after about ten minutes he arrived home, apparently oblivious to the fact he had arranged to be on a radio show. He then claimed that he had a dinner that he had to make for guests (he sounds a bit like Keith Floyd after a night on the sauce) so he could only speak for a quarter of an hour.

I felt totally insulted. Oborne gave no reasons for his refusal to share air time and basically wasted my time while I hung around waiting for him to get his arse into gear. When he did appear he just waffled about how he wanted to apologise to Muslims for how they have been treated, and he was apologising “on behalf of Britain” as if he was some duchess. Such simultaneous arrogance and condescension shocked me.

To hear him now deciding to redress some imaginary balance by exposing a secret Zionist cabal in some “conspiracy” is unnerving. Has he been programmed by Inayat Bunglawala of the MCB who once declared that the BBC was [pro-Zionist and dominated by people of “The Tribe of Judah”?

I will be recording the show, and if it seems that he is remotely arguing that Jews run the establishment, or just a part of it, I will be firing off letters to Paul Dacre with transcripts of offending statements.

You can write C4 here: http://help.channel4.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBCGI.EXE?New,Kb=C4_Author,Company={2EA1BB9C-510E-44A5-A481-01EB1DDA1669},T=CONTACTUS

Inna

They wanted to interview Conservative Friends of Israel but not Labour or Liberal Friends of Israel; BICOM; CST; Honest Reporting. No-one else. What’s the common thread? Money. What’s the innuendo? Look at what Poju Zabludowicz writes: “They insinuated that a cabal of wealthy Jewish businessmen secretly fund the pro-Israel lobby and they advised the journalists in particular that the programme will expose them as being in the pocket of that lobby group.”

But it might be fine ………….

It is also worth looking at the comments that people have left on the Dispatches website, under the promotional blurb. We have written about it a couple of times on the CST blog http://thecst.org.uk/blog/.

I’m sure do not want or intend to make anything antisemitic but the website blurb clearly plays up to antisemitic stereotypes. Maybe this is just the only way to make it sound interesting – ‘Jews try to help Israel, do an ok job’ just doesn’t do it – but my fear is that they don’t understand the potential antisemitic resonances and that this will also happen in the programme.

Still, we haven’t seen it yet and shouldn’t pre-judge.

Does anyone know where BICOM gets its funding from? They do seem a little coy on their website.

Exile:

“turf the Europeans out.”

You mean that after telling Jews in Europe for over a thousand years that they were “different” and should be segregated and punished, and after the Jews took the hint and packed up and left, they now have suddenly become “Europeans”?

Dave Rich
You beat me to it. Here is the link to the comments lon the Dispatches website: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-42/episode-1

It’s all here:
The Zionists as a fifth column suborning government and politics:

“….The Zionist Lobby counts many British politicians in its ranks where they function as a fifth column in support of Israel’s illegal actions. The powerful impact of the Zionist Lobby on British politics is more damaging to our country than that of the ghastly BNP…..”

The Zionists as destroyers of humankind:

“…….Lets expose the zionist lobby group for what they really represent, not the interests of the majority human being but the interests of a select few who seem to think they know best how to run most foreign policies and destroy any new soverign middle eastern states from rise!…..”

The Zionists behind the conspiracy of silence:

“.. .Im truly astonished this is being tackle as it is perhaps the only taboo left in British politics….”

The Zionists controlling the US and behind (all) world wars:

“…..In the infamous words uttered by Aerial Sharon when he was in power. “don’t worry about the US, we control the US” Israel has got to be brought to heel. It does not care if it starts WW3 ….”

The Zionists’ influence over western civilisation hitherto unexposed:

“….As journalists, you need to expose the truth and the facts with no taboo. And this is done wonderfully by exposing one of the main sources of influence in the whole western civilization…”

The Zionists in control of the UK:

“…..Good. We want our country back. The agents of a foreign power embedded at all levels of our government and politics need flushing out…”

The Zionists’ infamous hand at work:

“…..Let’s see the hand of global Zionism at work. Please do keep and show ALL the information and don’t fall for the old accusations of racism when doing programmes like this, to marr any unpleasant truths that may be found….”

The Zionists responsible for instability and bringing woe to the UK:

“…..more people will realise that it is the Israelis and not the “terrorists” who are fully to blame for the instability in the Middle East and hence the unrest between ourselves and the Arab world…”

The Zionists as fifth columnists:

“….the Israel lobby works to subvert the British political process and foreign policy to serve not British interests, but the interests of a foreign occupying tyranny, a left-over from the colonial era….”

The Zionists control the media:

“….It is disgraceful that C4 is intending to expose the pro-Israel lobby.Surely it is a signatory to the “National Press & TV Zionist Agreement”, which stipulates in paragraph one: “Thou shalt not print nor broadcast any reference to the undemocratic control by the agents of Israel over the House of Commons &/or the House of Lords.”

However, the latest post does ask the time-honoured question – any guesses as to what the response will be?:

“If the Israeli lobby is so powerful in politics and media then how come this program managed to be made? “

So, Jew-hatred makes it to the national media then. Nice.

Time for the evergreen joke:

Rabbi Altmann and his secretary were sitting in a coffeehouse in Berlin in 1935. “Herr Altmann,” said his secretary, “I notice you’re reading Der Stürmer! I can’t understand why. A Nazi libel sheet! Are you some kind of masochist, or, God forbid, a self-hating Jew?”
“On the contrary, Frau Epstein. When I used to read the Jewish papers, all I learned about were pogroms, riots in Palestine, and assimilation in America. But now that I read Der Stürmer, I see so much more: that the Jews control all the banks, that we dominate in the arts, and that we’re on the verge of taking over the entire world. You know – it makes me feel a whole lot better!”

Apparently British youth are becoming increasingly aware of this
Jewish conspiracy and are expressing their disapproval:

—-
SCOUTS ‘YELLED RACE ABUSE’ AT PROUD JEWISH WAS VETERANS
Saturday November 14,2009
By John Twomey

POLICE are investigating claims that Scouts yelled racist abuse at Jewish ex-servicemen during a Remembrance Day parade.

The veterans were stunned when some of the teenagers allegedly shouted: “Kill the Jews!”

Police were called in and it is understood one of the Scouts has already admitted using racist language.

The disgraceful scenes involving a small minority marred the service at Romford, Essex, last Sunday. A senior police officer was there and witnessed the taunting.
—–
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/140333/Scouts-yelled-race-abuse-at-proud-Jewish-was-veterans-

It is not a “Jewish” conspiracy; it is a “Khazar” conspiracy.

Educated people have a massive responsibilty to draw the distinction betwen the two.

Let history speak : such people have not taken that responsibility in sufficient numbers – thus contributing to further dangerous, ignorant prejudice – especially against the disadvantaged & innocent.

I first figured that the editorial staff might not be aware of nature of the comments posted on the site. It is entirely possible, after all, that C4 outsources the moderation and ‘leaves it to the professionals’. Most moderation is reactive – nothing is filtered – and the moderation only kicks in if a complaint is made.

But it seems (a part of) the editorial staff is aware and is actively reading the comments – see C4’s ‘Dispatches on Twitter’:
“Next week’s Dispatches on Britain’s Israel lobby already attracting comments on website http://tinyurl.com/yddmyv3
9:55 AM Nov 9th from web”

I don’t share his politics but Oborne is a good bloke and a serious-minded, principled and able journalist, despite a slightly buffoonish exterior. I’d suggest watching his programme with an open mind, although having read some of the comments here, that’s clearly asking too much.

There is no doubt this programme will be sensationalist. “Lobby group does some lobbying” is hardly television fodder. “Jewish cabal influences YOUR politicians into supporting your ENEMIES” is. Ironically there’s so much of this bullshit out there that no-one except the usual suspects like MPACUK pay any attention – and they’re already self-proclaimed anti-Semites anyway. I won’t be watching it (partly on principle, mainly cos I don’t have a TV).

“principled and able journalist”

Now there’s an oxymoron. All journalists, every single one, ever, across the whole world, would gladly lie, distort and embellish to get a decent story. And if by some fluke they haven’t, their editors will.

Well, it’s a point of view, I suppose.

Anyway, I look forward to reading the debate here after the programme has been broadcast.

Well, it’s a point of view, I suppose.

Anyway, I look forward to reading the debate here after the programme has been broadcast.

(apols for double post)

simonh:
“I’d suggest watching his programme with an open mind,”
and keep a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion handy to make sure that the facts as presented are accurate.

@ simonh

Since when has having an opinion on someone – an opinion based upon direct experience of his rudeness – been confirmation that it is not possible to watch a TV show with an open mind?

I think your own comment – by its own inherent logic – expresses the same lack of an open mind that you claim to see in those nameless “others”.

I know I will be watching the show before I make any comments for or against its contents. Unlike previous examples set by staff on the Daily Mail – for which Oborne writes – I will always watch an entire show before I rush to condemn (or praise) it.

I did have an open mind about Oborne – his own rude and arrogant actions set my opinion against him.

The opening post here expresses a caution that the show might be glorifying anti-semitism. For that reason alone, I will be watching. But I will choose to believe the evidence of experience before I condemn the show.

I expect that I will still regard Oborne as rude and boorish, no matter how he conducts himself in an edited TV appearance.

I’ve spent the whole morning researching this and I have come up with the most astounding discovery: the vast majority of British politicians, cabinet members, heads of the armed forces and even the Queen – are all Christian !!!! Is nobody aware of this giant conspiracy? Why is the media so silent ? This is the same group that invented colonialism and imperialism and took over most of the world, ruining our globes with monotonous red. This silent group, never revealing their sources of funding, still control Westminster and the Bank of England, andl dream of spreading their tenatacles to control and exploit the rest of the world.

Maybe they just don’t like competition.

so the discreditation starts before the film is shown, I think we’ve been here before.

However, the latest post does ask the time-honoured question – any guesses as to what the response will be?:

“If the Israeli lobby is so powerful in politics and media then how come this program managed to be made? “

Thanks John. I put that one up and wasn’t sure if they’d let it appear. Saved me checking and having to read the crap there.

Conservative Friends of Israel:- I joined CFI a few years ago but have lapsed in my subscription. I know of some of the hierarchy and its no doubt true that many are wealthy (as are many senior conservatives and their grandees). I believe CFI are the largest political group supporting Israel by membership alone. I know the CFI dinners ask for thousands to sponsor a table at their dinners (so what?). I also know that members of CFI ask questions in Parliament about issues relating to Israel. For example on Gilad Shalit, on Iran, on the peace process etc. But so do Friends of Palestine in early day motions. Labour Friends of Israel are fewere in number (I believe) and they certainly have a “two-state” and criticise Israel policy. CFI does as well. William Hague is a CFI member and yet he was very critical of Israel in The Lebanon and talked about “disproportional response”. He was also criticised by members of his own party for saying-so.

I know of an MP who is not Jewish but who passionately believes in the rights of Israel and has written to the BBC to complain of their coverage of the war in The Lebanon without any urging of some secret cabal with pound notes.

They sponsor trips for MP’s and journalists to go to Israel to see things for themselves and ask whatever questions they want. No-one if brainwashing them to take some party line.

At our political core I stroingly believe we are a pro-Israel country – even if it isn’t reflected by the Foreign Office. Criticism of Israel for its own WOT is to leave UK open to similar charges. The USA is also a naturally pro-Israel country.

Israel haters can’t understand why intelligent people from the centre and right support Israel. They don’t understand Islamic Terror and its global aims. Because they don’t understand it so they have to make exposes of this ridiculous policy of supporting Israel.

Playing to core antisemitic sentiment they are able to present these exposes and find an audience. Next it will be the Islamist Lobby who will pile into the breach.

I’d crudely have to respond by calling them terrorist supporters and antisemites (because if you spend time at MPAC UK you will see what I mean).

Look out for the pictures and footage of Hassidic Jews. You KNOW that a program is feeding off antisemitism when they do this. They concentrate of the traditional hate stereotype of the Hassidic Jew, who are 10% of all Jews, rather than the 90% who you probably couldn’t detect are Jewish. Its that imagery that stirs the emotion that “Jews are foreigners”.

Look out for the “Jew Outing”. Naming this peer and that Lord who are Jews. 90% of CFI aren’t Jewish but they believe in the right of Israel to exist and not be subject to attacks and lies.

Can one NOT be a friend of Israel, without being an “Israel-hater” and anti-Semitic ?

Can one NOT be a friend of America without being anti-American ?

I am NOT a friend of “USrael-UK” Zionists & their foreign policy militarism. Does that make me anti-Semitic or anti-American ?

Of course not.

That’s like saying if someone doesn’t like Berlesconi & his Italian policies, they are “anti-Italian”.

Totally absurd.

With that said, even though I am not anti-Semitic or anti-American, I am most certainly anti-Khazaric and anti-NeoCon….

The greatest threat to humanity’s survival – and we are pitifully & dangerously unaware of it.

Actually, Adrian, your post wasn’t in my mind when I wrote mine. But I would say that politeness and journalistic ability don’t necessarily go hand in hand.

If there is one way supporters of Israel really will undermine their cause it’s deciding that a programme about them is going to be an anti-semetic, conspiratorial hatchet job and complaining about it, before the damn thing has even aired. Given that anti-semetism is a real and growing problem this really is a foolish thing to do (cf spurious accusations of Islamophobia and genuine anti-Muslim prejudice).

Richard W. Symonds,

“I am NOT a friend of “USrael-UK” Zionists & their foreign policy militarism. Does that make me anti-Semitic or anti-American ?”

It looks to me like you have a problem with Zionism, which is the Jewish national liberation movement, and its product, the Jewish state of Israel, which is the second or largest Jewish community in the world, and certainly the most visibly and obviously Jewish, the result of an anti-Judaism which evolved into antisemitism in European, North African and Asian Christendom and Islam.

You also have a problem with Jews, including the tiny number of European Jews left, who sympathise with both.

It strikes me that what was an antisemite in the late 19th, early 20th century, would evolve into someone very much like you.

“deciding that a programme about them is going to be an anti-semetic, conspiratorial hatchet job and complaining about it, before the damn thing has even aired.”

I’m not deciding it, I’m fearing it. Or rather, I’m fearing that normative Anglo-Jewish sympathy and support for Israel will be consequently stigmatised to that Writing on the Wall moment for Anglo-Jewry.

It’s taken a few centuries for the myth of Jewish power to take root in the UK, but the infection is now here.

The most interesting thing will be the reaction of the BBC who ignored Dispatches’ ‘Undercover Mosque’ in favour of a week’s worth of broadcasting trashing Jade Goody.

Undoubtedly the BBC will have seen that it was a mistake to prioritise trivial playground taunts over racist death threats and mutterings of religiously inspired coup d’etats and will give full coverage to this new Dispatches concerning Jewish world domination….The Bagle has Landed.

The little English fascists like Symonds think Israel is a far away, exotically evil place. It’s ok to hate the many Jews over there, as monsters, because he loves the few who are here.

He doesn’t realise, bless him, that it’s because of characters like him that most European, North African and Asian Jews were either murdered or driven out during the 19th and 20th centuries, that the Jewish state of Israel is the second or largest Jewish community in the world, and certainly the one most obviously Jewish.

Bless him, he doesn’t hate the 80% of the world’s Jews that once lived in Eastern Europe. He can’t: they’re just ghosts.

He only hates the living.

And it’s ok to hate, so long as you obey George Galloway’s golden rule: never let the word “Jew” pass your lips. Always, use “Zionist”, instead.

Richard W. Symonds writes:

“It is not a “Jewish” conspiracy; it is a “Khazar” conspiracy.

Educated people have a massive responsibilty to draw the distinction betwen the two.

Let history speak : such people have not taken that responsibility in sufficient numbers – thus contributing to further dangerous, ignorant prejudice – especially against the disadvantaged & innocent.”

OK – so you are rehashing the theory promoted by Arthur Koestler in his book “The Thirteenth Tribe”. Yes, it is true that the Khazars were forced by Muslims to become people of the Book (alhul khitaab) and forced to choose between Judaism, Christianity or Islam, they chose judaism. They became absorbed by Slavic expansionists in the 10th century and migrated into countries such as Hungary, Poland etc.

But what are you trying to suggest? that Ashkenazi Jews from countries like Poland are not “authentic” racially-pure Jews? That because some Turkic Khazars migrated and mixed with Jews already in Western regions, that all Jews should be called Khazars?

So who – according to you – is “innocent”? And why is anyone “guilty”?

You seem to only deal in absolutes and the dualism of good and evil.

Of the Ashkenazi Jews, their Y-chromosomes show them to be from mainly Middle eastern background, with only 11% showing a different heritage, and it is argued that these have the Khazar lineage. ii” is a small percentage for you to label ANY modern Jewish group as being “Khazars”.

By the way, Ashkenazi Jews’ mitochondrial DNA, which is passed down from the mother, shows they all descend from four women around 2,000 years ago, though their origins geographically are now unknown as these mitochondria have developed their own unique characteristics:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html

I didn’t realise that Lord Symond’s considered himself educated. Wonders never cease.

As to the documentary tomorrow. We shall see. Perhaps they will then go after the extremists in PSC and the ISM.

Could you define “Fascist” for me, zk ?

Thank you.

I use the word “Khazar” instead of “Zionist”.

Mostly harmless: try to read their own blurb, while actually engaging your brain. It’s pure Protocols stuff.

Exile might try doing the same.

To say nothing of Simonh.

Flaming Fairy,

I take it you HAVE heard of the Guardian, the Independent and the BBC?

Had the Jewish diaspora fled to China then the antisemites who try to deny Jewish identity will be arguing that because of their facial features being oriental then they couldn’t possibly be Jews or decended from Jews.

Apologies to Oona King if I remind everyone she’s a natural born Black Jew (and we luv ya for it!)

I look forward to the programme. I quite like Despatches.

I understand why people on this thread are concerned about this programme, based on the blurb on their website etc and the rather poor time jews and Israel have had in the British press.

I dont understand why some posters here have a problem with people being worried about the programme. That just seems stupid. If you aren’t worried about the programme, then why come to a thread that voices apprehension about it?

MattG

Have you considered asking any of the Jewish directors of Channel 4 ( which there are ) or Jewish producers at Channel 4 or at the BBC for their opinions ?

I take it you HAVE heard of the Guardian, the Independent and the BBC?

Hmm, true.

Peter Oborne, excoriating scourge of the Political Class and true conservative opponent of its wars, will use tomorrow evening’s Dispatches to break one of Britain’s great political taboos, namely that against mentioning the existence of our very own Israel Lobby. It will be interesting to see how far Channel Four will let him go.

Just in case, the Israel Lobby accounts for the overwhelming majority of newspapers sold in this country, terrifies the life out of the broadcast media with its screaming about anti-Semitism if anything other than its own view is ever presented, provided from the criminal sale of seats in the legislature much of the money necessary to create New Labour (can you imagine that someone James Purnell, who used to chair Labour Friends of Israel, would ever have become a Cabinet Minister under normal circumstances?), dominates Cameron’s Tories, and remains much stronger in the Lib Dems than is often assumed.

Most significantly of all, it embodies, just as it does in America, a secular Ashkenazi nationalist position which is not held by most Israelis, fewer and fewer of whom fall into all three of those categories.

How far are we paying for it? Oborne may be able to tell us. I very much hope that he is and does. But we know that the American taxpayer is ultimately footing the bill for the maintenance on his soil of, in such forms as AIPAC and the ADL, the largest spy network maintained by any country on the soil of any other, to which Presidential candidates are even expected to go and pay court.

Will Obama bother to turn up in 2012? What would happen if he didn’t? The Christian Zionists (by no means all of the white Evangelicals, quite a number of whom voted for him anyway) would never vote for him, no matter what, so he wouldn’t be losing anything there. And the Jews, many of whom in any case do not agree with the Mossad position, mostly live in safely blue states.

At their respective heights, the British Empire and the Soviet Union ran large and powerful spy networks in the United States. But they were real powers. And, courtly as Britons and Russians can both be, they certainly did not have the sheer effrontery to charge the Americans for the privilege of hosting those networks. Oh, the shame, the shame!

one of Britain’s great political taboos, namely that against mentioning the existence of our very own Israel Lobby

The usual idiots, including you, have been foaming at the mouth about the big bad all-encompassing Israel lobby for years. Perhaps you don’t quite understand what the term “mentioning” signifies.

There’s a word in Yiddish which means ‘to eat and argue simultaneously’. Ultimately, the dinner table is the only place where a ‘pro-Israel lobby’ exists.

Gordon Bennet, not in the overwhelming majority of newspapers sold in this country, nor at the higher levels at least of either of the two main parties, we haven’t. Just for a start.

So basically Lindsay is complaining that the leaders of the two main parties have not yet come round to his antisemitic agenda.

You’ll have to do better than that. Even on here these days.

“Have you considered asking any of the Jewish directors of Channel 4 ( which there are ) or Jewish producers at Channel 4 or at the BBC for their opinions”

You mean the ensconsed Jewish elite, which panders to the chattering classes?

No.

“mentioning the existence of our very own Israel Lobby.”

You mean the British Jews that advocate Israel’s position to government and Britons generally, from their own pockets, since Israel is very dear to the heart of most British Jews?

You mean that insidious, pecuniary and treacherous cabal?

The comments about wait and see before you judge the porogramme are rendered null and void by the OBVIOUS antisemitism in Channel 4’s descriptrion of its programmatic intentions. If there isn’t yet a proper Jewish lobby it should form and go hell for leather right now. Even as a non-Jew, I would join it.

The attack is no longer against Israel but all Jews in Britain.

Members of the Jewish community investigated, should be eloquent and not hide anything of their intention to protect Israel and the Jews agaisnt vilification and destruction.. They should turn the tables on the Oborne’s of the programme.

They should be a large clamour in the interests of ‘fair play’ to have,as an alternative programme, a thorough investigation of the infiltration of Islamic fundamentalism in British Institutions, the openly declared intentions to destroy British democracy and the role of fascist left and people like Galloway and that Ridley woman. This is a far, far more serious form of barely covert lobbyism.

What David Lindsay has neglected to tell HP readers, is that his post of 7:04 pm is in fact a reproduction of an article he has contributed to the website of American Conservative, the magazine launched by paleo-con and longtime antisemitic conspiracy theorist Pat Buchanan.

Right, David?

http://www.amconmag.com/postright/2009/11/15/lobby-fodder/

You mean the ensconsed Jewish elite, which panders to the chattering classes?

Known in short by the label “as a Jew”.

And what Felix said.

Lindsay: I did well enough, I think. I summarised your disgusting, self-satisfied and overlong rant in much fewer words.

Can we take it that in the unlikely event there is any footage of Jews advocating the murder and subjugation of gentiles, the CPS and police will, er… investigate and threaten the programme makers, as they did with Undercover Mosque. FFS, there should have been prosecutions among the CPS and police for that conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice. Instead, nothing. i’m sure Channel 4 have nothing to fear this time.

As another poster said, so what if there is an ‘Israel lobby’/ Why is it only sinister in this instance. There is a vocal and well connected extremist Muslim lobby in this country and they not only get a free ride for inciting hatred and in some cases, terrorism, in some cases they get a seat on a fucking quango as a reward.

They are both workings of a post on my blog, Dave Rich.

You can’t forgive anyone who was right about Iraq, can you? Or anyone who objects to a foreign power controlling his country’s foreign policy, be that my country or Pat Buchanan’s. That is the simple point: control by a foreign power.

If, in Israel’s case, “power” be the word. At least when the British Empire or the Soviet Union was trying to run America, or the Soviet Union was trying to run Britain, or America tried to run Britain under Clinton and Bush, then the adversary was a worthy one. Tiny, bankrupt Israel is no such thing.

David

I really don’t care what you think or thought about Iraq, and you have no idea what I think or thought about it.

As for “a foreign power controlling his country’s foreign policy”, you give yourself away entirely. No foreign power “controls” the foreign policy of the UK or the US. It’s a ludicrous suggestion.

Tiny, bankrupt Israel is no such thing.

In other words, you don’t like Jews defending themselves.
QED.

“No foreign power “controls” the foreign policy of the UK or the US”

Well, not any more, in either case. The Obama Administration is not interested in controlling Britain, and Obama was first nominated and then elected against the Israel Lobby. Much as he was nominated against the feminist lobby that is now complaining about the Stupak Amendment (Stupak himself was for Obama from the get go). What the hell does he owe them? And what the hell does he owe AIPAC, the ADL, and so on?

Quite how much longer Americans will put up with having this giant spy network on their soil at all at their own expense, since their money keeps the foreign state in question going, remains to be seen. But they no longer have a President in any sense beholden to it. What if he just didn’t turn up to AIPAC in 2012? What would happen?

Gordon Bennet, considering how and by whom the State of Israel was founded within living memory, defending it is hardly our concern. Or having any affection whatever for it, really. It certainly has none for us. Destroying it is not our business, either, of course. But as conceived by those founders, it is busily doing that for itself. Just how many people living there are all three of secular (whether militantly or even just more-or-less), Ashkenazi and nationalist? How many children do they have? And how many do those who are only two of those things, or only one, or even none at all?

Quite how much longer Americans will put up with having this giant spy network

You forgot “long, spider-like tentacles” and “blood-sucking”.

considering how and by whom the State of Israel was founded within living memory

My brave Jewish brothers

defending it is hardly our concern

The royal “we”, Lindsay? Or do you imagine in your delusional state that you speak for me?

It most certainly is my concern.

Your fixation on Ashkenazi Jews is highly racist – so no surprise there, then. Mizrahi Jews are just as Jewish, and just as Israeli.

“My brave Jewish brothers”

Anti-British terrorists. I can only assume that the British Jews blown up in the King David Hotel were not your “Jewish brothers”.

“Mizrahi Jews are just as Jewish, and just as Israeli”

But they are nothing to do with the Zionist project as originally conceived. As those who are (such as there still are in Israel) lose no opportunity to remind them. Or to remind all other non-Ashkenazim. Or to remind all other non-secularists. Or to remind all other non-nationalists as they themselves conceive of nationalism.

If you are an Irgun/Lehi sympathiser, then why do you want to live in Britain, of all countries, at all? Is it just because the sort of secular Ashkenazi nationalist ghetto that they envisaged could still be created somewhere over here? Only at British, rather than American, taxpayers’ expense.

You should contact David Cameron, who has already promised little Caliphates, Hindutvas and Khalistans in return for filling in all the postal votes in favour of the Bullingdon Boys. I had always assumed that, if there were to be Jewish ones, then they would be ultra-Orthodox. But not necessarily, it seems.

It’s interesting how antisemitism morphs itself to the point that no matter what a Jews does – its wrong.

Since Jews were denied jobs over the centuries they dealt in money, trade and finance. Money bought wealth and wealth bought education. Education brought advantages and highly paid jobs and positions of merit in many fields. Wealth also created power through politics and the judiciary.

Absolutley NOT all Jews are rich and I know of many Jews who were on welfare benefit in my time. I owe my first pair of decent shoes to Jewish Welfare.

Antisemitism helped create the lifeboat called Israel. Now when Jews try and protect their life-boat they still get villified and attacked.

I am an advocate and lobbyist (on blogs) for Israel for no other reason than I have seen the antisemitic lies against Israel over so many years. My protection and defence of Israel is motivated by answering antisemitism rather than believing Israelis are all Barmitzvah Boys.

Israel is important to The West and naturally enjoys support of teh main democratic countries. Its the base of democracy and freedom in the Middle East. Its a jumping-off point to relations with Turkey & India due to Israel’s trade. Israel is an important technology feed for Silicon Valley and technology benefits worldwide.

If the West ever abandoned Israel then I’m sure Russia would love to step in. In some senses I don’t see a great need for a lobby because you ditch Israel at your own peril.

Can you see the Free World favouring Arab/Muslim politics over Israel’s need to survive.

(Anyway, if you piss off Israel then Goldman Sachs will pull the whole Wester economy down! Joke!)

Anti-British terrorists

Brainless crap. Fighting the military of the illegal occupiers of your country is not ‘terrorism’. You really need to enroll on a remedial evening class. Britain had NO historical or any other justification for being there in the first place.
You keep whining about foreigners ‘controlling’ your country. But of course, Jew-haters see nothing wrong in their own country controlling that of the Jews – with tanks and paratroops.

If you are an Irgun/Lehi sympathiser, then why do you want to live in Britain, of all countries, at all?

Because I am British, you disgusting racist. You are exactly the sort of person who in the 1930s would have agitated for Jewish Brits to wear a yellow star – and will do so in 2009 as soon as you get a chance to do so.

“Mizrahi Jews are just as Jewish, and just as Israeli”

But they are nothing to do with the Zionist project as originally conceived. As those who are (such as there still are in Israel) lose no opportunity to remind them. Or to remind all other non-Ashkenazim. Or to remind all other non-secularists. Or to remind all other non-nationalists as they themselves conceive of nationalism.

You have no effing clue about Israel, beyond what you’ve read on neo-Nazi websites. It’s almost funny to see you spout this 100% ignorant crap. Almost.

Actually I thought he reads like someone who gets his notion of Israel from far left Academics like Pappe & co. Convergence of the kooks, I suppose.

Touched some very raw nerves, haven’t I, Gordon?

Possibly the rawest being that the Israel you want, insofar as it ever existed, certainly doesn’t now, for all the anti-British terrorism (in London, not just in British Mandated Palestine) to bring it about.

Oh, well, if they promise to get the vote out for him, David Cameron will give secular Ashkenazi nationalist “community leaders” the power to determine the public holidays and then heaven knows what else in any area where that electoral promise can be shown to be worth anything. He’s made the offer to other people, some of them also not exactly known for their pro-British politics. So why not to you, too?

Like them, you can then pack the area or areas in question from all over the world, cementing your position for ever as everyone else left, if not exactly voluntarily, then certainly without … well, we all know without what. It would last a lot longer than the society envisaged by Irgun and Lehi has. That has never fully existed. And, as a society, it doesn’t really exist at all now.

“Touched some very raw nerves, haven’t I, Gordon?”

Jew baiting, it’s so easy, David, isn’t it? Like shooting Jews in a gas chamber?

I felt that Peter Oborne should be ‘innocent until proved guilty’. However, some the comments appearing below the blurb are worthy of StormFront.

For instance,

‘we are being attacked from within by 5th columns in our parliament for this murderous regime.’

‘It is disgraceful that C4 is intending to expose the pro-Israel lobby.Surely it is a signatory to the “National Press & TV Zionist Agreement”, which stipulates in paragraph one: “Thou shalt not print nor broadcast any reference to the undemocratic control by the agents of Israel over the House of Commons &/or the House of Lords.”

‘.. the Israel lobby works to subvert the British political process and foreign policy to serve not British interests, but the interests of a foreign occupying tyranny, a left-over from the colonial era.’

‘Let’s see the hand of global Zionism at work.’

‘We want our country back. The agents of a foreign power embedded at all levels of our government and politics need flushing out.’

“The Zionist Lobby counts many British politicians (who) function as a fifth column in support of Israel’s illegal actions. The powerful impact of the Zionist Lobby on British politics is more damaging to our country than that of the ghastly BNP.”

Have the Channel 4 moderators ever read the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia which says that current anti-semitism ‘… charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” ’

and continues

• ‘Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.’ and

• ‘Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective – such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.’?

Probably not, for they have passed numerous examples of these forms of anti-semitic discourse for publication.

No one wants the State of Israel and its policies to be above examination and criticism and some comments make hard-hitting criticisms. However, many comments rehash the discredited and vile Global Jewish Conspiracy theory and their presence on Channel 4’s website is unworthy of a TV station which prides itself on exposing and challenging racism wherever it is to be found.

Oh, grow up, zkharya.

You really should consider the Cameron option. You often live in areas of considerable electoral importance. I don’t know about Stamford Hill, but it would take many years of Haredisation to return Tory MPs from Salford and Gateshead. Most Muslim areas are in much the same position. But Hindus and Sikhs might well be in a different one. And so might you.

Just imagine it. No Palestinians. No Christian pilgrims. No Russian Christians, never mind Russian Nazis. No East Africans who had kept the missionaries’ Old Testament but not their New. No Peruvian Indians. And no Sephardim, Ethiopians or Haredim, either. All you’d have to do is vote Tory on election days, in itself making little or no difference to what you did on your own little patch, which would all be paid for by central government.

Ironic, that the dream should end up being lived in Britain of all countries? No more so than that so should, for example, that of those denied a state when the Punjab was partitioned.

Grow up yourself, Jew baiter.

Quite how much longer Americans will put up with having this giant spy network on their soil at all at their own expense, since their money keeps the foreign state in question going, remains to be seen.

Yet another helpless, paleocon, Christian soul whose brain is gradually being eaten away by Zionists™. Whatever can be done to once and for all wipe horrible outcomes like these from the map of time?

If only there was an offbeat and eccentric patriot to found a political party that would stand for a restoration of traditional Christian values, revive a spirit of Christian triumphalism and champion an isolationist foreign policy to safeguard Albion from malignant foreign Zionist™ interests in the name of a progressive, left of centre nationalism…

oh hang on

There’s no helping some people.

There’s no helping some people.

Oh david, don’t lose faith so soon. Your benevolent and loving conscience obliges you to share the good news, even with the stubborn, stiff necked and tightly knit.

Especially with them.

The last secular Ashkenazi nationalist dream-livers in the Levant will have to be airlifted to somewhere eventually, possibly quite soon. And it won’t now be to America.

Unless, of course, no one even noticed that there were still a few of them left, so insignificant had they become both numerically and in every other sense…

Er…who awe you trying to help, Mr Lindsay?

I spent 15 very happy years of my life in Stamford Hill, as a gentile. I think you should go and rent a bedsit there, and see how well the Jews conduct themselves as a community.

I’m sure they do, Adrian Morgan. The ones in Gateshead are the same.

But Cameron’s offer to various other people’s “community leaders” is also applicable to theirs: make sure that you and your mates fill in every postal voting form in the house for the Tories, and in return you get to run your area however you like at public expense, causing everyone else to leave and the people who wish to live like that to move in from all over the world, thus securing your position in perpetuity.

What had not occurred to me until this evening was that it was also applicable to secular Ashkenazi nationalists, what I see that we are no longer to call “Zionists”. That they might be electorally more useful in the short term. And that they have more need of it. The Haredim can always go to America or Israel. But where can the heirs of Irgun or Lehi go these days?

Especially with them.

Yes because the holy trinity itself demands of David to do to the Jews precisely what David Lindsey demands of them (to expect and welcome the imminent and absolute destruction of Israeli society and to love as only those who can experience agape are able) to do unto him. David is on a political mission from the father, son and holy ghost to preach to the Jews.

Odds are favourable that unbeknowest to him, he’s a repressed Messianic Jew. They too are on a mission from the holy trinity to preach especially to the Jews. David could provide them with the political creed best suited to the spiritual obligation to spread the good news.

Touched some very raw nerves, haven’t I, Gordon?

In your wet dreams, boy.
Do you think you are the first antisemite I’ve come across in my life? I was merely putting the record straight vis-a-vis your non-stop lies regarding Israel (or perhaps, as I’ve suggested earlier, you really are so utterly ignorant about Israel that you actually believe the crap you post).

The last secular Ashkenazi nationalist dream-livers in the Levant will have to be airlifted

I personally know dozens of such people in Israel.

“What had not occurred to me until this evening was that”,[the political aspiration]… “to run your area however you like at public expense, causing everyone else to leave and the people who wish to live like that to move in from all over the world, thus securing your position in perpetuity” [...] “was also applicable to secular Ashkenazi nationalists”, [...] “the heirs of Irgun or Lehi”

I just checked British immigration stats and David is right.

Britain is being inundated by an unsustainable tsunami of foreign secular Ashkenazi nationalists who are the heirs of Irgun and Lehi. And official housing stats show that once they’ve established a foothold on British soil they swarm the area and exploit their power to chase patriot and native Britons from their homes.

Excerpt from an article in the October 09 issue of No, I’m not an antisemite, Magazine.

Well, Lbnaz, they no longer have anywhere else to go.

I don’t know if anybody will read this, but just wanted to say that I’ve thought about this and it occurred to me that it might be that the producers are trying to make the promos look like a conspiracy to get ratings, only to reveal that there is no conspiracy during the actual show. Could it be that “questions that are unanswered about this mysterious lobby” would actually be answered in a simple manner during the show itself, in a way that would dispel conspiracy theories? Could it be that the promos/summaries of the show that were publicized were just a ploy to get people to watch something that might not have any mystery at all?

Isy

I like your thinking and it is possible that your theory is correct. However, from the way the programme makers have behaved with regards to BICOM and the CST suggests that Dispatches are not aiming to make the programme you describe.

I am prepared to keep an open mind until I see the programme, but I share the unease of the other posters here.

I wouldn’t be too surprised, either, Isy. Oborne, great man though he is, does write for The Daily Mel.

Lbnaz, so, where exactly in Britain do we put them? We have an historic responsibility to them, for indulging their naive fantasies in the first place and thus allowing them to put themselves in their present position.

So, where can we locate them so that they can live in peace and prosperity without offending anyone else, especially other Jews, to whom they are particularly averse? After all, it is not as if there are very many of them left, and they have a distinct aversion to having anything like enough children. Or to people with no such aversion, a point on which we must be careful when it comes to resettling them.

Well, Lbnaz, they no longer have anywhere else to go.

True again. IIRC, That was established during the recent UN sponsored International Conference to Study the Secular Ashkenazi Nationalist who are Heirs of Irgun and Lehi Question with the adoption by all member states of the General Assembly of the Saudi proposal to ban Secular Ashkenazi Lehi Irgun Nationalists from all member states of the General Assembly with the temporary exception of Israel and the permanent exception of the United States and a David Cameron led government in the UK.

Any idea of when the Secular Ashkenazi Nationalists will be getting their UN mandatory travel identity cards issued David?

Lbnaz, so, where exactly in Britain do we put them?

How should I know? They’re living in your head David, not mine. Maybe you should ask them yourself. But if you do, it might be wise not to conduct your negotiations with them in public view, because others might judge you, errantly of course, to be a bit nutty if they see you involved in prolonged, passionate verbal arguments in the absence of any another visible interlocutor.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1258027296696&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

….”The following Monday, the producers stormed into Honest Reporting’s Jerusalem offices with cameras rolling, demanding to know where Plosker was.

“It was as if in an attempt to catch some sort of criminal activity. They demanded to know where I was, claimed that I was a ‘major player in the UK’ and asked whether I had something to hide,” Plosker, who is currently in London, told the Post.

“Channel 4 has still failed to make clear why my professional background is of such interest to them,” he went on. “I have nothing to hide, and aggressive actions such as bursting into my office with cameras rolling, pursuing me, can do nothing to dispel the suspicion that this documentary is nothing more than a cynical hatchet job aimed at the Anglo-Jewish community and supporters of Israel.”

The letter was sent by the program’s producer Ed Harriman, who also writes for the London Review of Books and was the first to review Walt and Mearsheimer’s book The Israel Lobby in March 2006.

“The entire premise of the program is extremely disturbing, playing as it does on classic anti-Jewish prejudice. If a well-oiled and effective lobby existed, then I’d be out of a job and Israel’s image in the UK would not be in the shocking state it is in today,” Plosker said. “

From above link :

From above link :

“Labor MP Denis MacShane, who chaired the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Anti-Semitism and is the author of ‘Globalizing Hatred: the New Anti-Semitism’, questioned the existence of such a lobby.

“If there is a Jewish/Israel lobby here, it is not very effective, as Israel is almost
treated as a pariah state in the media and has few friends in politics,” he told The Jerusalem Post.”

Ummmmm…MacShane is a prominent member of the Khazar-controlled Henry Jackson Society – with Zionist NeoCon Richard Perle as a prominent International Patron.

Deeply disturbing.

I can’t help feeling that the most influential, covert “Pro-Israel Lobby” is The Henry Jackson Society.

Will this come out in tonight’s Dispatches ?

I very much doubt it.

I am amused to see that nice little Simon Plosker has now been revealed as the latest fiendish machinator to be controlling your country by stealth. I’ve always thought of Simon as sort of Anglo-Jewish version of Ronnie Corbett, but how naive I must have been. He is in fact the devil incarnate.

Also, I realize its pointless to feed the trolls, but I cant help pointing out to David Lindsay that the Irgun and Lehi, far from being secular-Ashkenazi-nationalist groups, were paticularly noted at the time for the large proportion of non-Ashkenazi and non-secular Jews in their membership, – these are generally held to have constituted a majority in the case of Lehi. In many ways, these groups’ memberships contained within them the embryo of the particular social coalition that would bring Begin to power in 1977, and has with a few breaks been running Israel ever since.

Oborne is now advertising his programme on the Guardian’s Comment is free: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/16/israel-friends-lobby-uk-politicians

Open Democracy has published Oborne’s article/pamphlet here:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text

“Whether as a result of these pressures or for some other reason, mainstream political publishing in Britain tends simply to ignore Israeli influence. Andrew Marr’s Ruling Britannia: The Failure and Future of British Democracy contains not a single mention at all of either Israel or the Israel lobby. Nor does the Alan Clark’s The Tories, or Robert Blake’s The Conservative Party from Peel to Major.”

Imagine that. Marr, Clark and Blake do not mention that British democracy is under assault from the Israel lobby. This must be because they lack Mr Oborne’s courage.

“It was equally hard to find a publisher for this pamphlet” -

But somehow managed to get a programme made to be shown on prime time telly (big shout out to the courageous C4) and an article in the Guardian’s CiF. As Oborne is using the Mearsheimer and Walt guide to becoming famous crib, can Mary-Kay Wilmers be far behind?

The Guardian has printed a review of tonight’s program http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/16/pro-israel-lobby-conservatives-channel4-dispatches which reveals that 50% of the Shadow Cabinet are in the so called “Friends of Israel”. I did read recently that over two thirds of all British MPs are members, the highest proportion, percentage wise, coming strangely enough from the Liberal Democrats.
So what exactly is so admirable about Israel that makes our political representatives so anxious to show their appreciation? Surely it can’t be because Israel is known for good reason as the “Apartheid State”, it is without doubt a racist society. Even the US State Dept. in their annual report mentions many incidents of racial discrimination including “According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children.”
It mentions ” Advocacy groups charged government officials with making racist statements. The Chief Rabbi of Safed, Shmuel Eliyahu, a government official, made public appeals for the expulsion of Israeli Arabs from Safed and other Israeli communities. In September 2006 MK Effie Eitam called for removal from the political system of Israeli Arabs, whom he called “traitors in the first degree.”
The Jewish National Fund (JNF) statutes prohibit sale or lease of land to non-Jews.
So not much in that regard to admire I would have thought.

Then perhaps it’s because British MPs believe that Israel is a small beleagued state surrounded by hostile nations? Prime Minister Begin at the National Defence College on the 8 August 1982 made a speech in which he admitted that previous wars including 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1982 were not undertaken on the basis of defence and they were not wars of “no alternative”.

As for the following invasion of the Lebanon in 2006 and the utter brutality of the Gaza was in 2008/9 ,I know for a fact that both were pre-planned and both justified by false pretences such as kidnapped solders or Hamas rockets.
So once again nothing much to justify support.

It can’t be Israel’s record of observing International Law , human rights or the Geneva Convention either.

What is clear is the the Jewish lobby’s control not over the British government, but even more seriously over the US in the fields of finance (All 5 Governors of the Federal Reserve Bank in 2008 were Jewish) and the media, control of newspapers and TV, contributed a great deal to the justification of both the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and also part of the fictitious “intelligence”.
During the Bush era, over 30% of his advisors and leading lights were Jewish, I understand that with Obama the situation is even worse.
British foreign policy is heavily biased towards Israel, partly perhaps because of our tradition of having a Jewish Foreign Secretary.

You must realise that simply because of the fact that Jews are not the majority in British politics in any party is not to say that their influence is not significant, you just need a large group voting in unison combined with others to make a huge difference.

We should really be learning from the past, at the time of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia which began Communism over 70% of the leading echelons of the Bolshevik Party were Jewish, true that percentage fell as stated in this article “In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
According to Solzhenitsyn 11 of the 12 gulags had Jewish Commandants. This part of history seems largely ignored, no Nuremberg trials despite the fact that the resulting genocide made Hitler seem a novice.
True Stalin wasn’t a Jew, but then neither was Bush or Blair but that fact didn’t stop them carrying out their duties to satisfy Zionist objectives. Interestingly enough the percentage of the population in the USSR, USA and UK is only about 3%, quite remarkable in view of that just how much power they have.

Finally I would just like to mention Brig. Gen. Avichai Rontzki who is the The Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) chief rabbi as an illustration of the fact that when it comes to religious extremism none can surpass a Jews nut job. The chief rabbi told students in a pre-army yeshiva program last week that soldiers who “show mercy” toward the enemy in wartime will be “damned.” “In Israel’s wars, warriors are God-fearing people, righteous people, people who don’t have sins on their hands,” he said. “One needs to fight with an understanding of what one is fighting for.” After hearing comments like this it’s easy to understand how the Israeli troops during the genocide in Gaza, didn’t think twice about deliberately targeting women and children and using weapons intended to cause maximum civilian death, these nut jobs think they are doing G_d’d work.
I wonder why in that case why the British Government refused to endorse the Goldstone report, Goldstone being a Zionist Jew himself, as Israel’s actions were in clear contravention of International Law, Humanitarian Law and the Geneva Convention, but I guess we know the answer.

The woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks.

Britain’s Israel Lobby

http://tiny.cc/l291y

Back in 2005 when I set out to write a profile of the Labour Friends of Israel for Spinwatch, the powerful pro-Isarel lobbying group, I couldn’t find a single in depth study. Nearly five years later, little seems to have changed. All of this cannot be blamed on corporate media collusion; the left is equally complicit. Partly because of dogma, partly cowardice. So it is unsurprising that when finally someone decides to subject the activities of Britain’s powerfuly Israel lobby to overdue scrutiny (see this in depth report), it shouldbe a conservative journalist. Peter Oborne has already made an excellent documentary about the persecution of Muslims in Britain for Channel 4’s Dispatches. Tonight at 8 pm, Channel 4 will broadcasting his latest: a brave, hard-hitting look at the Israel lobby in UK. In the following article Oborne and James Jones explain what motivated them to make this film. (Also check out this Guardian report on the lobby’s bankrolling of the Tory party)

Every year a very grand lunch is given by the Conservative Friends of Israel at a central London hotel. Anyone who is anyone in the Conservative party makes it their business to be there. It is normally addressed by the party leader.

This year’s event took place in June, with the main speech by David Cameron, and the shadow foreign secretary, William Hague, in attendance. The dominant event of the previous 12 months had been the Israeli invasion of Gaza. We were shocked Cameron made no reference in his speech to the massive destruction it caused, or the 1,370 deaths that resulted, or for that matter the invasion itself. Indeed, our likely future prime minister went out of his way to praise Israel because it “strives to protect innocent life”. This remark was not intended satirically.

Afterwards, we resolved to ask the question: what are the rules of British political behaviour that cause the Tory leader,his mass of MPs and parliamentary candidates to flock to the Friends of Israel lunch in the year of the Gaza invasion? And what are the rules of media discourse that ensure such an event passes without even being noticed?

During an investigation lasting several months, we have been able to reach several important conclusions. We maintain there is indeed a pro-Israel lobby in Britain. It is extremely well-connected and well-funded, and works through all the main political parties.

For instance, Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) – once described by the famous Conservative politician and historian as “the largest organisation in western Europe dedicated to the cause of the people of Israel” – claims that 80% of all Tory MPs are members. The Labour Friends of Israel is equally formidable. In 2001, Jon Mendelsohn, a former chairman of LFI and now Gordon Brown’s chief election fundraiser, was quoted in the Jerusalem Post as saying that “Zionism is pervasive in New Labour. It is automatic that Blair will come to Labour Friends of Israel meetings.”

Since 2001, LFI has arranged more than 60 free trips to Israel for MPs. LFI and CFI trips account for an astonishing 13% of all funded trips abroad for MPs and candidates. That’s more trips to Israel, with a population smaller than London’s, than to any other country.

Furthermore, those in many sensitive foreign affairs, defence and intelligence posts in the Commons are often Labour or Conservative Friends of Israel. Mike Gapes, chair of the foreign affairs select committee, is a former deputy chair of the LFI. Kim Howells, chair of the intelligence and security committee (and a former Middle East minister), used to chair LFI. James Arbuthnot, chair of the powerful Commons defence select committee, is also the serving parliamentary chair of the CFI.

The Israel lobby is not afraid to use its political muscle. After Hague said Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 2006 was “disproportionate”, there was an explosion among donors. Only a few weeks ago Hague, following CFI pressure, put out a statement demanding Britain reject the Goldstone resolution at the UN.

Meanwhile, a parallel operation is carried on against media organisations that criticise Israel’s foreign policy. In particular, the Guardian and the BBC suffer from a barrage of complaints and emails, many from outside the UK. The BBC has proved unable to cope. As the culture secretary, Ben Bradshaw (a former BBC reporter), rather bravely remarked after director general Mark Thompson turned down a request from the Disasters Emergency Committee to broadcast a humanitarian appeal for Gaza: “I’m afraid the BBC has to stand up to the Israeli authorities occasionally. Israel has a long reputation for bullying the BBC.”

It is important to say what we did not find. There is no conspiracy, and nothing resembling a conspiracy.

Yet, as we demonstrate in Dispatches on Monday night, the financial arrangements of a number of the organisations that form part of the pro-Israel lobby are by no means widely known. The pro-Israel lobby, in common with other lobbies, has every right to operate and indeed to flourish in Britain. But it needs to be far more open about how it is funded and what it does. This is partly because the present obscurity surrounding it can, paradoxically, give rise to conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact. But it is mainly because politics in a democracy should never take place behind closed doors. It should be out in the open for all to see.

John “The woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks.”
Instead of making childish comments such as this, if you find anything whatsoever factually incorrect about the comments I’ve made please do not be too shy to come forward.

Also, I realize its pointless to feed the trolls, but I cant help pointing out to David Lindsay that the Irgun and Lehi, far from being secular-Ashkenazi-nationalist groups, were paticularly noted at the time for the large proportion of non-Ashkenazi and non-secular Jews in their membership

Indeed, including many Yemenites. But isn’t it unfair to confuse trolls with facts? Their heads are known to explode at the slightest evidence that Jews don’t really have eight legs and don’t weave spiderwebs in which to ensnare true Aryan trolls and suck their blood.

“We were shocked Cameron made no reference in his speech to the massive destruction it caused, or the 1,370 deaths that resulted, or for that matter the invasion itself. Indeed, our likely future prime minister went out of his way to praise Israel because it “strives to protect innocent life”.”

Well, that’s a political motivation pure and simple. It assumes that no Ango-Jewish supporter of Israel could possibly genuinely believe Israel had grounds for such an operation, or was conducting it as carefully as it could.

That is imputing a malignity to Anglo-Jewish support for Israel.

But politicians do not attend such a function primarily for Israel, they do so to garner support from British Jews, who sympathise with Israel.

And Michael is not criticising the Jews that form such an organisation, he is criticising the politicians that attend it. With the implication that they have betrayed their moral conscience by doing so.

Again, that assumes that Anglo-Jews could not have an just or legitimate cause to sympathise with Israel’s reasons for Cast Lead, or that British politicians have a reason for listening to them.

Talk about closing down debate before it starts. I mean, it’s not as if Gazans’ grievances weren’t given a full airing in the media and elsewhere in January 2009.

So, just Anglo-Jews sympathetic to Israel need to be silenced, then.

‘figures.

Michael (I don’t have a TV, so am unlikely to see your program, for a while):

“Yet, as we demonstrate in Dispatches on Monday night, the financial arrangements of a number of the organisations that form part of the pro-Israel lobby are by no means widely known.”]

You mean they are private organisations, not government organisations, privately funded?

Or is the implication that they are funded by a Foreign Power?

Even if that were true (and how shocking it would be if they were funded from Anglo-Jews’ pockets!), Israel would hardly be alone in funding public relations in this country. Umpteen Arab and Islamic states do. Any funding Israel could provide surely pales into insignificance besides that, and surely has done for at least 60 years.

Press TV, anyone?

Has anyone inquired closely into the funding for the PSC or ISM? It’s hardly inconceivable any petro-dollars could have leaked into that, is it?

But do private Anglo-Jewish organisations need to reveal the sources of their funding now?

“But it needs to be far more open about how it is funded and what it does.”

Why didn’t you ask them? Why did you wait until the last week before telling them the allegations, when you could have asked them 5 months ago?

BICOM BEGGED you to tell them what they were.

But I now have this mental picture:

BRITISH FRIENDS OF ISRAEL STATE LAVISH BANQUET IN POSH HOTEL!

WHO FUNDS THEM?

WHO COULD POSSIBLY AFFORD SUCH AN EXTRAVAGANT ANNUAL EXPENSE?

IT IS INCONCEIVABLE THAT SUCH A THING COULD COME FROM THE POCKETS OF ANGLO-JEWISH PHILANTHROPES ALONE!

THERE MUST BE A FOREIGN POWER BEHIND IT!

Also, does anyone remember CAABU? I know that is quite recent, but there have been umpteen similar organisations before, and not just for Arab states.

The reason British Friends of Israel is significant is because it is associated with a substantial Anglo-Jewish community. That’s why British politicians associate with it: to garner Jewish votes.

There are other organisations: pro-India, for the Anglo-Indian community.

As if you didn’t know.

But at least you have revealed your real gripe: David Cameron didn’t criticise the Israelis in Gaza.

Also, Michael, when you say you don’t allege conspiracy, you lie.

That is precisely what you allege: secrecy about funding because of an illicit Anglo-Israeli Jewish conspiracy.

That’s what a conspiracy is.

“Again, that assumes that Anglo-Jews could not have an just or legitimate cause to sympathise with Israel’s reasons for Cast Lead, or that British politicians have a reason for listening to them.”

Well it’s rather a safe assumption.

Evidence that Israel planned this genocide even before the Jun 08 ceasefire was signed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html “Sources in the defence establishment said Defence Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defence Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas.”
Evidence that Israel planned to use “disproportionate force”.

“IDF plans to use disproportionate force in next war.” http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1026539.html

Evidence to show that the genocidal “Cast lead” was not necessary and wasn’t caused by Hamas rockets by an admission by Mark Regev, the Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert’s ’spokesman’ that there were none from June 08 until the Israelis broke the truce in Nov 08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c

Hamas even offered to renew the ceasefire in Dec 2008 but that it was rejected by Israel. http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

“Also, Michael, when you say you don’t allege conspiracy, you lie.”

I don’t need to lie, neither did I claim it wasn’t a conspiracy, clearly it was. I can’t think of one single reason why so many MPs would want to be in an organisation called “Friends of Israel”, a few perhaps but so many suggests that there’s something untoward going on.

And why can’t British and Israeli Jews (sometimes in the same persons) come to any financial arrangement they please to promote British-Israel relations?

But that is precisely your problem, Michael, isn’t it? There they are, outrageously conducting themselves as if they have every right to do so during Cast Lead.

Your problem is with Anglo-Jewish support for Israel, and British politicians’ being concerned for Jewish votes.

Israel is so wicked, in your view, that it is now immoral for British politicians to have such concerns, isn’t it? Anglo-Jews need to be told what’s what, and put in their place, no?

So, you are going to play your part by alleging the venal, secretive and illicit nature of Anglo-Israeli Jewish relations. That it now serves the interests of a foreign not the British state.

The trouble is, it will have precisely the opposite effect you intend: it will make British Jews feel more isolated and alien that ever.

“Michael (I don’t have a TV, so am unlikely to see your program, for a while”

Well I do, in fact I have a 1 metre motorised dish, I’m able to see television channels from as far west as S. America and as far east as India, many of the news transmissions are in English and yes, that would include the Iranian Press TV which you scoff at without actually being able to see it yourself.
What is immediately noticeable is the lack of coverage by British channels on the continuing inhumane treatment by Israel of the Gaza Strip, the blocking of medical supplies, of water supplies, the daily harassment of civilians in Gaza including the destruction of farm land and irrigation. The continuing creep of Israeli land grabbing, the destruction of Palestinian houses, the terrorist activity of Israeli settlers, the routine kidnapping of Palestinians. The shooting at Palestinian fishermen by the IDF
The lack of coverage in regards to the aid convoys from the UK and USA that do after extreme intimidation manage to get through.

“And why can’t British and Israeli Jews (sometimes in the same persons) come to any financial arrangement they please to promote British-Israel relations.”

When that has a detrimental affect on British foreign policy, which clearly it does, it is a problem. I will ask you again, why do so many British MPs belong to an organisation called “Friends of Israel” when that country has such a poor record in complying with International Law, Humanitarian Law, UN Resolutions and frankly, common decency?

OK, so now the truth:

“When that has a detrimental affect on British foreign policy, which clearly it does, it is a problem.”

But now you’ve moved the goalposts: you were complaining about the allegedly secretive nature of financial arrangements. You can’t intrinsically complain that British and Israeli Jews come to such arrangements: umpteen other groups and states do e.g. Arab and Islamic states and petro-dollars.

Unless you believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with the nature of Ango-Jewish sympathy with Israel.

Which you have as good as admitted is your real gripe or, at least, concern of British politicians for Anglo-Jewish support.

The Anglo-Jewish community is bound to Israel in all manner of ways, as it is in the US e.g. my bro runs a modern Hebrew afterschool.

(now doubt this is all very exotic to you)

You have also admitted your real problem is with Israel, since you regard it as effectively a foe, and, ergo, Anglo-Jewish sympathies effectively hostile to the UK.

Well if you think that, you’ll think that ANYTHING Anglo-Jews do in support of Israel is detrimental to the state, including advocacy, which is what lobbying is.

The odd thing is, while Cameron didn’t criticise Cast Lead, he didn’t support it, either.

Which means you have a problem with British politicians’ showing even NEUTRAL concern for Anglo-Jewish pro-Israel sympathies.

Hold on, Michael, am I wasting my time here?

Your first post presented as though it was yours, in the first person. But you don’t actually have any part in making this documentary, or do you?

I’m sorry, mate, when you call Cast Lead a “genocide”, you’re obviously a nutter.

“I don’t need to lie, neither did I claim it wasn’t a conspiracy”

Er, yes you did:

“It is important to say what we did not find. There is no conspiracy, and nothing resembling a conspiracy.”

Except you were lying, from the start. You were passing off someone else’s writing as your own.

You clearly are determined to ignore my questions.
But to answer yours, yes I do think there’s something fundamentally wrong with the nature of Anglo-Jewish sympathy with Israel, just as I would if any German living in the UK in 1943 had sympathy with Germany.
Yes indeed, my real problem is with Israel but not for the reasons you mentioned but because, as I’ve made clear, it is a state where racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing and sheer brutality are the order of the day. If it was a black African or Middle East Arab state behaving in this manner I would feel exactly the same.
Anyway not much to be said further until the program tonight, I understand the Jewish lobby in the UK have been trying their best to censor it, I wonder if it will be deep and thorough enough to warrant the effort.

“Iranian Press TV which you scoff at without actually being able to see it yourself.”

I didn’t scoff, just observed it was foreign funded.

“What is immediately noticeable is the lack of coverage by British channels on the continuing inhumane treatment by Israel of the Gaza Strip”

You’re joking, aren’t you?

“Defence Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defence Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas.”

Yes, in case the ceasefire broke down. So what?

“Mark Regev, the Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert’s ’spokesman’ that there were none from June 08 until the Israelis broke the truce in Nov 08″

Hamas was digging a tunnel under the Gaza-Israel border for the purpose of kidnapping Israeli soldiers, as it had often proclaimed it would.

That is a de facto breach of truce.

I can’t believe I was suckered into wasting time with you.

Hold on, Michael, am I wasting my time here?

“Your first post presented as though it was yours, in the first person. But you don’t actually have any part in making this documentary, or do you?

I’m sorry, mate, when you call Cast Lead a “genocide”, you’re obviously a nutter.”

My first post never made any such claim, my second post clearly gave a link, it’s not my fault that you obviously have reading difficulties. Cast Lead was genocide in every sense of the word and would fall under that heading by the definition used by the United Nations. You are an idiot to try and claim otherwise.

Yes Press TV in foreign funded, but it is an Iranian Channel, so is CNN foreign funded.
No I’m not joking about the lack of coverage on the continuing blockade of Gaza, I wish i were.
The point with Israel’s pre-planned genocide and the ceasefire is that Israel broke the ceasefire themselves, the Israeli government doesn’t even deny that.
There’s only Israel’s word that Hamas intended to kidnap an Israeli soldier and let’s be honest, Israel doesn’t exactly have a good record when it comes to telling the truth, at one time they even claimed they hadn’t used white phosphorus although it was clear to everyone watching they were doing just that.
Incidentally one of the conditions of the ceasefire in June 08 was that Israel stopped the blockade, that never happened , therefore Israel had their own “de facto breach of truce” from Day 1.

No I didn’t lie and neither did I need to, I didn’t claim that the second post were my words that’s why I gave you the link, it’s not my fault that you are too stupid to look, I made no attempt to pass this work of as my own.
But I see that you are going into your “when all else fails throw some personal abuse” mode.

“My first post never made any such claim, my second post clearly gave a link, it’s not my fault that you obviously have reading difficulties.”

How was I to know it wasn’t from your blog? You didn’t give it a name.

In any case, if you post it, why wouldn’t I think it conveys your views unless you proclaim otherwise?

Well, if you think Israel a racist, genocidal, apartheid state, of course, you think Anglo-Jewish support illegitimate, as well as British politicians’ concern for Anglo-Jewish sympathies for Israel.

That is all that being a member of BFOI means. Israel is one of the few issues that unites Anglo-Jewry, and which anyone seeking their support needs acknowledge.

So, that one brigadier rabbi is as ruthless as many of Israel’s enemies, so what?

Hamas wants to persecute Zionists for all eternity (sounds like you do too).

“The continuing creep of Israeli land grabbing”

Creep=slow and not very much.

It can’t exceed the barrier, and Jewish east Jerusalem isn’t very much anyway. ‘just making sure the Palestinians and other Arabs never drive Jews from east Jerusalem, old and new, Hebron, like they did in the ’30s and ’40s, or anywhere else again.

“Yes indeed, my real problem is with Israel but not for the reasons you mentioned but because, as I’ve made clear, it is a state where racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing and sheer brutality are the order of the day.”

No, I change my position: you’re real problem is you’re a nutter.

No genocide. Israel treats Israel Arab Muslims and Christians better than any Arab or Islamic state treats Jews. The number of Arab Muslims evicted from Israeli Jewish owned property is tiny, as is the “land grab”, and Israeli brutality pales into insignificance compared to umpteen other conflicts, contemporary and recent.

Remember Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Sri Lanka, Sudan?

Remember Hamas’ goal of eternal jihad until the extinction of any kind of Israel?

The OT are a problem, but so is the Palestinian national movement, under Yassir Arafat and after, which has dragged its feet about a final peace settlement too.

michael, with some posters you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t, welcome to the world of harry’s place, spectator blogs, cifwatch etc etc.

For some reasonable posts and to restore some faith on this topic I suggest:
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/ definately my kind of zionist

“No I didn’t lie and neither did I need to, I didn’t claim that the second post were my words that’s why I gave you the link, it’s not my fault that you are too stupid to look, I made no attempt to pass this work of as my own.”

You didn’t name the blog. So I assumed it was yours. And at least your opinion.

Why would you cite some random, unnamed blog as an authority, unless it at least represented your views?

Why does assuming that make me stupid?

I think accusing Israel of genocide is abuse, against Israel and anyone who sympathises with her. You are indirectly accusing them of sympathy with genocide.

Presenting someone else’s opinions as your own, then abusing whomever for assuming so (”You can’t read!”, remember?), is also abusive.

“There’s only Israel’s word that Hamas intended to kidnap an Israeli soldier”

No. There’s Hamas’ word.

“and let’s be honest, Israel doesn’t exactly have a good record when it comes to telling the truth, at one time they even claimed they hadn’t used white phosphorus although it was clear to everyone watching they were doing just that.”

Did Israel ever deny using white phosphorus? I don’t recall.

“The point with Israel’s pre-planned genocide”

I iterate: you are a nutter.

“and the ceasefire is that Israel broke the ceasefire themselves, the Israeli government doesn’t even deny that.”

Yes they do. They say Hamas broke the truce. Digging a tunnel under the Gaza-Israel border for kidnapping Israeli soldiers (or any other purpose, actually), is a breach of truce.

And you’re complaining Israel gets too much coverage? Clearly not, since Israel has been saying that from the beginning.

Also, you’re missing such a basic Israeli position only shows that Israel needs UK advocates, since, clearly, the “Zionist controlled” media isn’t doing a very good job.

As Oborne writes in today’s Guardian:

“For instance, Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) – once described by the famous Conservative politician and historian as “the largest organisation in western Europe dedicated to the cause of the people of Israel” – claims that 80% of all Tory MPs are members. The Labour Friends of Israel is equally formidable. In 2001, Jon Mendelsohn, a former chairman of LFI and now Gordon Brown’s chief election fundraiser, was quoted in the Jerusalem Post as saying that “Zionism is pervasive in New Labour. It is automatic that Blair will come to Labour Friends of Israel meetings.”

Since 2001, LFI has arranged more than 60 free trips to Israel for MPs. LFI and CFI trips account for an astonishing 13% of all funded trips abroad for MPs and candidates. That’s more trips to Israel, with a population smaller than London’s, than to any other country.

Furthermore, those in many sensitive foreign affairs, defence and intelligence posts in the Commons are often Labour or Conservative Friends of Israel. Mike Gapes, chair of the foreign affairs select committee, is a former deputy chair of the LFI. Kim Howells, chair of the intelligence and security committee (and a former Middle East minister), used to chair LFI. James Arbuthnot, chair of the powerful Commons defence select committee, is also the serving parliamentary chair of the CFI.”

Which past of this is not the case? Unless at least some of it is, then yes, we are talking about a very formidable lobby indeed. As Oborne concludes:

“The pro-Israel lobby, in common with other lobbies, has every right to operate and indeed to flourish in Britain. But it needs to be far more open about how it is funded and what it does. This is partly because the present obscurity surrounding it can, paradoxically, give rise to conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact. But it is mainly because politics in a democracy should never take place behind closed doors. It should be out in the open for all to see.”

Shouldn’t it? If not, why not?

Which politician hides their membership of BFOI?

What would be the point? Their main goal is to garner Anglo-Jewish support. It’s relatively easy to do. Only Israel unites most Anglo-Jews. Show sympathy for Israel, and you at least do not alienate Anglo-Jews.

As for funding, we’ll see if they actually asked BMOI any questions.

In any case, it is likely to be a mixture of funding. Some is likely to be Israeli, some Anglo-Jewish. Sometime it may be in the person of Anglo-Israeli Jews, so impossible to distinguish.

The question is whether this was “hidden”, or undisclosed for some nefarious purpose.

In any case, it seems to me Osbourne’s problem is with Anglo-Jewish support for Israel, and British politicians’ garnering Anglo-Jewish support for acknowledging it.

And it is likely to be no more than Arab or Islamic petro-pounds, over the years.

“This is partly because the present obscurity surrounding it can, paradoxically, give rise to conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact.”

Yeah, right. Talk about a disingenuous motive.

This BBC documentary is one of the Left’s last stabs at Israel before the General Election in May 2010 that will probably result in a Tory Victory and hopefully some sort of privatization of the BBC that will force its management, in order to compete on an equal basis in a free market, to exile their Lefties to join their Marxist friends on the Ash heap of History. For a historical analogy, think of the German offenses of Spring 1918 in the all-out attempt by Luddendorf to win the Great War before the arrival of the Americans decisively tipped the war against Germany.

“Since 2001, LFI has arranged more than 60 free trips to Israel for MPs. LFI and CFI trips account for an astonishing 13% of all funded trips abroad for MPs and candidates. That’s more trips to Israel, with a population smaller than London’s, than to any other country.”

Because of the unique relationship between Israel and the Anglo-Jewish community.

So, what?

Since when were Anglo-Jews thirteen per cent of the population, then? This is not about Jewish electoral support: there are nowhere near enough Jews in Britain for that to matter, certainly not compared to Muslims, or Catholics, or various others. No, this is about money.

As for Arab petrodollars, that is not incompatible. On the contrary, Israel and the Gulf monarchs openly run joint candidates for President of the United States (Bush, Clinton), and wars are duly fought by other people (Britons, Americans, &c) in the identical interests of both of them.

David All: this (and I really do find it remarkable that people are jumping to all manner of really quite extreme and objectionable conclusions about a programme that that haven’t even seen, because it hasn’t been broadcast yet! This is a classic example of a Harry’s Place thread as lynch mob at its worse, and a presumptious one at that!) is not a BBC documentary, but rather Channel 4, an independent company albeit one that (I think) gets (or certainly used to get) some kind of funding for arts and documentary material. Founded in 1982, it was once a highly reputable channel (if one not afraid to be controversial), but (and not having a TV I am not the best to say….) I get the sense that it has dumbed down considerably in recent years, as a result of greater commercial pressure

I for one stand full square against privatization of the BBC: it would undermine and damage probably the finest news-gathering and distributing body in the world. Frankly the publicly funded BBC is the one thing in this country that I feel a real pride of.

Also, Peter Oborne is by no means “on the left”: he is a crusty old conservative who was the political editor of The Spectator and I have been led believe writes for the Daily Mail.

Sorry to undermine the focus of this wildly irrational (and frankly, loony) thread with some facts :)

“Since when were Anglo-Jews thirteen per cent of the population, then?”

When was Israel-Palestine much less than 13% of news of foreign wars in the last 8 years?

Extremely negative reporting of Israel, much of it state funded.

“No, this is about money.”

You mean Anglo-Jews are prosperous and organised? And know how to schmooze, wine and dine a lady?

Naturally a schlep like you resents that. They’ve got class, you’ve got none. They pull the birds, you pull yourself.

Venichka: You may be right. In any case, probably should wait till the documentary actually airs before I make any conclusions. Trouble is that there has been so much anti-Israeli propaganda in British Media in recent years that it is hard not to assume in advance a kind of one-sided smear job.

Note: Has any British magazine run on its cover the illustration of a Muslim scimitar piercing the Union Jack, like the New Statesman did in 2002 of the Star of David piercing the British flag for an article on Britain’s pro-Israeli lobby?

Money and class are not the same thing, zkharya…

The whole thing was horribly transparent innuendo and indefensibly vague smear, complete with anxious and unwarranted denials of antisemitism; practically a Philip Glass soundtrack; and montages of Israeli battles and Palestinian victims edited between the unremarkable claims against rich Jews.