Harry's Place

Superb article in JP, here is the nub, but please read it in full:

Last week, Prof. Trond Andresen of the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) received a lengthy, patiently argued e-mail from an Israeli colleague at the Weizmann Institute. The proposal circulating at NTNU for a blanket boycott of Israeli academics was, opined the Israeli, a lousy idea on so many levels…
Andresen promptly posted the e-mail on his personal page on the NTNU Web site, together with a short introduction. “The Israeli lobby machine has sent a quick and targeted reply for my attention,” he wrote…

This can be put another way. Since it is, at least for the boycotters, blindingly obvious that Israeli academics are complicit in the policies of war and occupation pushed by the rogue state in which they live and work, it follows that anyone who opposes an academic boycott is expressing not a personal opinion, but the imperatives of an invisible-yet-eerily-powerful lobby. You might call this Andresen’s Law. ”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1258489189959

Try and get used to this. In these times in terms of the BNP and EDL it may well we are looking at their sites but in another context”

If you see someone using Nazi arguments and propaganda in their obsessive, single-minded project to demonize the only Jewish state, and only the Jewish state, but this person personally associates themselves with “the left” rather than “the right”, then such recycled Nazi propaganda ceases to be hateful. Is this what we need to “get used to”? Do I understand the argument properly?

@amie – yes I read about that – the commentary by Andresen was breathtakingly unfair I thought. But then I signed the SPME petition so I am obviously evil and/or under some sinister influence!

If John Baxter does indeed purport to be from the Left, then he is a pathological case of denial. I don’t like bandying the ‘nazi’ word about but anybody who wants to make use of or ‘contextualise’ the work of the BNP and the EDL is pretty much asking for it.

The CST blog post is brilliant, btw. Pretty much everything I see by them has a intellectual and moral force that puts them head and shoulders above anybody else in this debate.

I’m looking forward to the documentary on the ‘anti-Zionist lobby’ which I’m sure either the BBC or Channel 4 is preparing for broadcast.

“Just to be very clear I don’t think that intentionally to seek supportive information from material posted by neo nazis on a neo nazi website is defensible. That however was not what Jenna Delich did. Try and get used to this. In these times in terms of the BNP and EDL it may well we are looking at their sites but in another context”

Wow, just wow.

It’s pretty simple if you are browsing the likes of David Duke or the BNP and agreeing with them you are either:
- A racist scumbag who recognises their own racism.
- A racist scumbag in denial.

Even if you did spot something that might possibly be true (even a broken clock is right occasionally) then it would really behoove you to triple check the facts from reputable sources. If it does exist in more reputable sources then why the hell weren’t you looking at them in the first place? Oh yeah, because you’re a racist scumbag in denial. Given the bias inherent on neo-nazi websites that fact is near guaranteed to be placed well out of context.

But none of this matters to John Baxter who is apparently so blindingly committed to the ‘Palestinian cause’ he’s thrown out anti-fascism and embraced the works of outright anti-semites in defense of his colleague who linked approvingly to their works.

Quite frankly this line of reasoning as well as being incredibly moronic is a menace to anti-fascism and to people seeking an end to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

I thought the Hardcore neoNazis castigated the BNP and EDL as being zionist stooges or something?

I don’t think JB expressed himself very clearly. I suspect that the more sinister interpretation of his words is not the correct one – though obviously I can’t be sure. I took them to mean that one might look at a dodgy website in order to know one’s enemy.

By the way – and I know I’ve made this point in response to similar posts in the past – it doesn’t bother me that these leaks from the UCU are made public as examples of what is being said, what is felt to be acceptable on that forum. But couldn’t that useful point be made without linking/naming people? I feel my reservation is particularly relevant if, as I suspect, JB is being misinterpreted?

“I took them to mean that one might look at a dodgy website in order to know one’s enemy.”

It’s his defense of Delich though who did link to David Duke approvingly IIRC.

I can perfectly understand wanting to “know the enemy” in terms of fighting racism and fascism. I can’t see how you could think that linking to David Duke is merely a harmless accident. The man is one of the worlds most famous anti-semites and his words full of racist lies. Anyone that was looking at them to “know the enemy” would already know he was the enemy and wouldn’t be quoting him approvingly!

I wonder what Shlomo Sands would say of the Baxter excuse?

After all, in Sands’ travesty of a book he argues in order to destroy the validity of a Jewish state in Israel, that there is no genetic link between any Jews in the world to the Jews of ancient Israel. But when formidable refutations of this are presented from DNA and genetic studies, he throws up his hands in horror (literally, I have seen him) and says DNA studies and genetics is so tainted by its Nazi connotations that no Jew should go near it and it should not ever besmirch any argument in favour of Jews.

huh?!

Really?

That is surreal!

Ada Yonath, the Israeli co-recipient of this years Nobel Prize for Chemistry, is anti-occupation, I believe.

Which camps and hovels are these, IS?

Zionist is on its way OUT

This illiterate asshole is a lecturer?

Yes, it’s very avantgarde and socialist to declare that the eternal Jew, hook nose and all, is on his way out. Now we know what the last 100 years of socialism have been all about.

Did someone mention that these people are pathological deniers? If not, let me say it: this is far right racism, whatever spin these scum try to put on it.

Damn those political Jews!

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120041.html

Ada sounds like a woman, fwiw.

DNA studies and genetics is so tainted by its Nazi connotations that no Jew should go near it and it should not ever besmirch any argument in favour of Jews.

Of course not. You can only use it against Jews. Which reinforces my argument that the man is an antisemite, and/or dumb, and/or a cockweasel. But then, any little halfbrain asshole can become a professor these days.

Is it a universal truth that the more pathetic one’s own worth, the more one has an issue with the achievements of others? If that’s the case, I’m not surprised that Keith Hammond, a Lecturer in Adult and Continuing Education (whatever the fuck that is), has a problem with Israel.

Opponents of Israel are not always anti-Semitists. And it isn’t helpful to accuse them of being so.

However, the driving force behind the anti-Israeli movement is Jew-hatred.

For ‘Islamists’, and even many Muslims in general, Israel is an affront. A humiliation. A reversal of centuries of the ‘old order’, where Jews knew their place as second-class citizens in a dominant Muslim society. As proscribed by ‘Allah’ himself.

The Muslim world preys upon Western altruism and gullible liberalism. It deliberately maintains the Palestinians’ hardship and poverty. It calculatingly puts Palestinian women and children in the line of fire knowing that every death will achieve sympathy and support from its target audience.

The Muslim world talks of two-state solutions. Of co-existence. But this is deception. Deep down, the Muslim world wants Israel to cease to exist. And every concession gained is simply a step towards that end.

Here’s some moral equivalence.

At the end of WW2, 3 million Sudeten Germans were expelled at gunpoint from Czechoslovakia. It was war. They backed the wrong side. They lost.

After the war, many lived in former German concentration camps. Eventually, they settled in Germany and became Germans.

Imagine now, if the Germans and Austrians had maintained that population within those camps. If they had kept them in poverty at the border, pointing bitterly at the Slavs that had ‘stolen’ their land and homes.

It’s inconceivable isn’t it?

But not in the Muslim world. Because there, ‘Allah’ demands it.

So nothing on this site about Israel’s approval of 900 housing units in occupied East Jeruselum? Hmm

>> So nothing on this site about Israel’s approval of 900 housing units in occupied East Jeruselum? Hmm

Troll alert! There is… you’ve mentioned it under two different posting handles.

There is nothing wrong with a profession in Adult Education. However, the likes of Hammond want to be associated with academics, so is a snob.

Presumably Baxter therefore thinks it’s defensible – in another context – “to seek supportive information from material posted by neo nazis on a neo nazi website.

Well no, that doesn’t seem to be what he’s saying at all. Honestly, you should be able to counter these assholes without resorting to tendentious readings of their emails…. making shit up, in other words.

So ‘Driving Force’. Don’t you just hate the way that Zionists misappropriate the language of the holocaust to silence criticism of Israel.

Your use of ‘lebensraum’ is however entirely innocent and appropriate’.

Of course your comment is off topic. But thats pretty normal for those that are threatened by this blog. But its how fxxkin stupid you are which is the problem.

What an absolute moron.

IMHO.

MattG

In all honesty, admittedly the comments above are just by some teenage non-entity (mostly harmless, driving force) but its quite astonishing how lame the counter-arguments to this site are.

A troll is a troll, but I really think the aforementioned poster thinks that he/she is making an argument.

More importantly, Keith Hammond belives that “Zionist is on its way OUT”

Not a ringing endorsement for the two state solution really.

MattG

Opponents of Israel are not always anti-Semitists. And it isn’t helpful to accuse them of being so.

Nobody has ever said that they are ‘always’ antisemites. We’ve heard your lame accusation time and time again, from the likes of Bowen and Fisk and other such pondlife.
When they are, it is helpful and indeed necessary to accuse them of being so. It’s called ‘anti-racism’.

The rest of your post, RezaV, is superb, of course.

And thank you to whoever fixed my misformatted post.

RezaV’s contribution is 100% bang on.

The “Palestinians” are a deliberately constructed,
ever growing, people who claim victimhood &
refugee status, while raising large families &
receiving largesse from the muslim world.

After WW2, Jews, Germans, East Europeans etc
faced up to their lot, & settled down to rebuild their
shattered lives, often very successfully.
Eg the million Jewish refugees from Arab states
after the 1948 attacks on them, as well as on Israel.

The “Palestinians” are an artificial construct, in
effect a massive immigration, via reproduction, in
a no mans land that could flourish, but is not
permitted to. The Saudis, the Iranians,
George Galloway & the Tonge woman need them as
victims. Human shields for their true intentions.

Mostly Harmless:

At least you state that the 900 housing units are in Jerusalem, something that The Guardian conveniently omits to mention which gives the impression that the units are somewhere out in the West Bank.

The truth is that Gilo is in the south part of Jerusalem, not east of it like Maale Adumim. Pre-1967 “East” Jerusalem surrounded west Jerusalem on three sides.

To my knowledge, even the Palestinians never asked in any of the negotiations that these north/south Jerusalem suburbs such as Gilo and Ramot, be returned as part of the Palestinian State.

But if you think that Jews have no rights in Jerusalem, conveniently forget that the Old City was ethnically-cleansed of Jews in 1948 and believe that there never was a Jewish temple on the Temple Mount …….

Zionist is on its way OUT
—-This illiterate asshole is a lecturer?

He is also a very arrogant asshole. Wtf does he think gives him the right to have a say in the future of millions of people from a far off country.

Who do these people think they are?

So nothing on this site about Israel’s approval of 900 housing units in occupied East Jeruselum?

Israel does not consider East Jerusalem to be occupied territory.

Gordon Bennet

Was your first comment a misunderstanding of mine, or was your second one sarcasm?

I’m confused.

The CST article was so careful not to make the accusation of anti-seimitism.
I’m getting a little tired of this. Making anti-semitic comments and just substituting the word Zionist for Jew is rank bullshit. I don’t play pretend very well. These people are anti-semites.

Stan

“Anti-semitism charges are just part of the deal for anyone who speaks out for Palestine. The important point in all this is that we keep speaking out for Palestine. There is nothing wrong with our having to check our language to make sure we are actually being clear about our opposition to the rotten apartheid system that is Israel

The author is, in my opinion, an antisemite because they are prepared to tell lies about The Jewish State by suggesting its a “rotten apartheid system”.

Zionist is on its way OUT

Illiterate! So, you are hoping to defeat “Zionism” which is simply the creation and sustenance of a Jewish State. A homeland for Jews who want to escape from antisemites like you.

Antisemite! Antisemite!

See, I bet calling you “Antisemite!” doesn’t in any way stop you from making these comments. In fact, claims of “Antisemitism” NEVER stop people from commenting negatively and uniquely unfairly on Israel. Why should this label stop anyone? Its not as if anyone has ever been arrested for Antisemitism even if Jews, who would know about Antisemitism, will claim it. After all, Stephen Lawrence Enquiry established that the claim of racism comes from the victim who is an expert.

Was your first comment a misunderstanding of mine, or was your second one sarcasm?

Neither.
My first comment was in response to the gambit trotted out by antisemites that they don’t really hate Jews, they only hate Israelis. Or Zionists. Or Zionist Jews. Or running dog imperialist Jews who think they have historical and legal rights in Israel as their homeland. Or something. Therefore they are not really antisemites, they are anti-Imperialists, and they resent to the very core of their sensitive little avantgarde souls the accusation that pathologically demonizing Israel can in any shape or form constitute antisemitism.
A gambit that you reproduced for some bizarre reason, because I know that is not really where you are coming from.
My second comment was meant literally. Your historical analysis was faultless.

Gordon Bennet

“My first comment was in response to the gambit trotted out by antisemites that they don’t really hate Jews, they only hate Israelis. Or Zionists.”

Of course they do. I understand this fully.

However, there is another significantly large group of people, those left-wing ‘Palestinianists’ and gullible Western liberals who are genuinely not anti-Semitic, yet oppose what they understand to mean ‘Zionism’ as well as Israel in general.

The point I was trying to make is that whilst they themselves may not feel anti-Semitic, their perception of the IP situation is being manipulated, with great success, by an anti-Semitic ‘conspiracy’ (for want of a better word).

‘It’s pretty simple if you are browsing the likes of David Duke or the BNP and agreeing with them you are either:
- A racist scumbag who recognises their own racism.
- A racist scumbag in denial.’

Unless you happen to be working for Searchlight, or doing any form of research (academic or personal) into the politics of the far right, then what the fuck are you doing ‘browsing’ on either of these websites?

Exactly my point sackcloth.

“After all, Stephen Lawrence Enquiry established that the claim of racism comes from the victim who is an expert.”

No it didn’t.

It decided that the definition of a racist incident should be-

‘….any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person’

Please note the reference to ‘any other person’.

MindTheCrap 18 November 2009, 12:59 pm

Thanks for the geography lesson. I don’t know whether the PA have ever asked for this area to be part of the Palestinian state either, – I’ll check it out later.

Didn’t say Jews have no right to Jeruselum, didn’t forget Jews were expelled after 1948 and do believe there may well have been a Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount – for the record.

At least you state that the 900 housing units are in Jerusalem, something that The Guardian conveniently omits to mention which gives the impression that the units are somewhere out in the West Bank.

The truth is that Gilo is in the south part of Jerusalem, not east of it like Maale Adumim. Pre-1967 “East” Jerusalem surrounded west Jerusalem on three sides.

To my knowledge, even the Palestinians never asked in any of the negotiations that these north/south Jerusalem suburbs such as Gilo and Ramot, be returned as part of the Palestinian State.

But if you think that Jews have no rights in Jerusalem, conveniently forget that the Old City was ethnically-cleansed of Jews in 1948 and believe that there never was a Jewish temple on the Temple Mount

It would be much easier for these “people” if they just admitted they were anti-semitic, and then just got on with it.

There “arguments” are always one-sided and don’t take into account other factors in the Middle East. They deliberately blind themselves.

Live long and keep exposing these fools.

Khalid Abu Toameh on what you should focus on if you truly are pro-Palestinian.

Hint: has nothing to do with boycotts or hosting “Israel Apartheid” events

http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/11/what-does-pro-palestinian-really-mean.php

To cut from blood and carnage to JEWS eating fine foods, classic Joseph Georbells. Missed out the the Balan report when claiming the BBC are pro Israel.

Time to pack the bags. Every generation tries for it’s own final solution.

Reza,

However, there is another significantly large group of people, those left-wing ‘Palestinianists’ and gullible Western liberals who are genuinely not anti-Semitic, yet oppose what they understand to mean ‘Zionism’ as well as Israel in general.

We’ll have to part company on that one. It’s not only those who declare themselves to be Jew-haters who are antisemites. Indeed, many antisemites come over all huffy and offended when you suggest that spouting with approval non-stop antisemitic crap makes one an antisemite.

The only pass I am prepared to give is to those who are genuinely too stupid to understand that they are being led by the nose and sold lies about Israel, and are too lazy and ignorant to check the true status of these lies for themselves.

Please note the reference to ‘any other person’.

Please note the reference to ‘or’.
This little word means that an incident has to pass TWO hurdles so as to be regarded as non-racist:
a) the victim says it isn’t;
b) nobody else claims it is.

If the victim says it is, it is. End of.

Wow, this Dispatches programme really has ruffled the feathers of the Israel-before-anything crowd….and of course, true to form, Harrys Place tries to extract anti semitism from those associated with it in much the same way as people try to extract blood from a stone.

Oh, and anything that can unite Harrys Place, Melanie Phillips & Guido Fawkes in disgust is a good thing by me!

nice one john ;)

Could any/have any of the fellow members of the conspiracy manage/d to upload the program onto youtube? This would enable we members of the entity to watch it while singing Irgun songs, counting our secular Ashkenazi money and feasting on a nice bit of Hugh of Lincoln. Thanks.

Paul, the Dispatches programme can be viewed again here.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches

Gordon Bennet: ‘The only pass I am prepared to give is to those who are genuinely too stupid to understand that they are being led by the nose and sold lies about Israel, and are too lazy and ignorant to check the true status of these lies for themselves.’ Exactly. Except that I wouldn’t give them a pass. The willingness to accept without question that Israel acts out of evil motives reflects a poor opinion of Jews, otherwise known as anti-semitism.

Wow, this Dispatches programme really has ruffled the feathers of the Israel-before-anything crowd

Says Bolloxham (with a sycophantic endorsement from ‘mostly pointless’) of the Zionist Conspiracy-controls-everything crowd.

It makes me ashamed to be a member

Hey you morons in the MSM. Gilo isn’t a “settlement ” …. it’s part of Jerusalem. The fact that the Jordanians took the area from its owners in ‘48 doesn’t make it otherwise.

What in the world is wrong with Obama and journalists.

Just watched it. Among a number of comments I could make, I found the presence of Sir Richard Dalton particularly amusing. Dalton was featured as an ‘objective’ critic of the supposed pressure brought to bear by the lobby on William Hague. Dalton, a former consul-general in Jerusalem, has the sort of views that we know and love from the British foreign office in general and holders of that position in particular. For some reason, the program forgot to point out that he had held this position.

More importantly it also forgot to point out that his daughter, Chloe, is a senior adviser to William Hague, with views known to be similar to daddy’s. One imagines that Chloe might be upset that her boss doesn’t always share her views. Perhaps Sir Richard should have declared an interest. After all, one wouldnt like to be thought to be behaving in the sneaky fashion of the you-know-who’s, would one.

On a more serious note, those of you who belong to the public that this disgusting program was targeting, dont forget that we’d be happy to have you here. Seriously.

Here’s a strange thing. A year ago, I was something of a hero to you guys, after my bizarre Press TV confrontation with an evasive and humourless George Galloway, defending our second UNDERCOVER MOSQUE investigation. I was, of course, accused of ‘Islamophobia’. Now its ‘anti-semitism.’ The fact remains that gathering evidence of homophobic, misogynistic, and racist preaching in supposedly ‘moderate’ mosques – and investigating the transparency, influence, and interests of a major foreign lobby in UK politics are BOTH legitimate bases for an investigation. I note that no-one – as was the cas in the UM films with regard to Muslim voices – paid any attention to the significant and eloquent contributions to Monday’s film by Jewish intellectuals wholly supportive of the programme’s right to ask awkward questions.

RE: anything that can unite Harrys Place, Melanie Phillips & Guido Fawkes in disgust is a good thing by me!

Who cares, Flotsam

Not so much Jewish intellectuals, Mr Henshaw, as the usual suspects with personal bones to pick. There are many Jewish intellectuals (you know how overrpresented they are) who are not uncritical of Israel but would be critical of the mission and sleazy juxtapositions of your piece, so how come your search for Voices was confined to this convenient coterie?

the significant and eloquent contributions to Monday’s film by Jewish intellectuals

Talk about pathetic and desperate scraping of the bottom of the barrel. But then, this IS the pathetic and desperate C4.

Being an ‘as a Jew’ gives one no more entitlement to spout Jew-hating drivel that it gives such an entitlement to anybody else, boy.
A racist lie is a racist lie, even if one has been circumcised.

David Henshaw:

The problem I have with investigations into the existence of pro-Israel lobbies in the US and UK, two countries that are not highly reliant on middle eastern oil or investment, is that these are done without any consideration into the reasons for such lobbies coming into existence.

A very powerful propaganda machine has been in action since the mid-1960s that has done much to harm not only Israel, but the Palestinians as well. The latter with few exceptions like Khalid Abu Toameh, unfortunately, by and large, still don’t realize this.

http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/11/what-does-pro-palestinian-really-mean.php

David Henshaw: When will you be doing an equally conspiratorary type documentary on the Saudi Lobby? Can we look forward to critics of the Saudi Ruling Family being interviewed? Will you talk about Saudi funding of extremist preachers that influenced terrorists around the world from 9/11 to Major Hasan? When will Channel 4 be broadcasting it?

Ah, the Sounds of Silence.

Apparently David Henshaw has found something more urgent to do then to defend his slanted documentary on supporters of Israel.

Oddly, and unlike some of you, I do not spend my entire life locked on to a computer screen. David All – if he can be bothered – should take a look at the three films highly critical of Saudi Arabia that my company has made in the past six years: but that would mean using critical faculties rather than just mouthing off. I have defended HP in the past, but this stream of comment is rather heart-sinking in its one dimensional and repetitive failure to address the arguments put forward in Monday’s programme.

Spittle-flecked antisemitic garbage is now ‘arguments’, according to Henshaw.
The entire Enlightenment has passed people like him by.