Harry's Place

Those flakey pastry triangles sound divine. But I’m already a Christian.

were those burekas filled with cheese or potatoes? You see, I’ve been eating cheese filled burekas for years and haven’t felt any urge to convert…..weird isn’t it?

Do not enter (the café) because with her sweet talk, she will try to ensnare you to her Christian religion.

Stay away from her! Be proud Jews! Vote with your feet!

At least she’s not accused of using the blood of Jewish children as a mix.

Sigh. Yes I personally am interested in this story and have been following it, but has anyone done a count on the proportion of Yeze’s posts, on a single topic, as against any other single topic single poster here in the last few months?

You are posting on Shabbat so will not get any responses from Shomrei shabbat commenters today- I am sure that is unintentional. I actually envy them the respite from your posts. I know no one forces me to check the site, but I actually found the shabbat occasioned by the hacking very useful for getting stuff done uninterrupted.

Amie, there’s plenty of posts on all sorts of interfaith topics here, do these posts stand out for you? I haven’t written about Pnina before here, and thought her case deserved a mention.

You are posting on Shabbat so will not get any responses from Shomrei shabbat commenters today- I am sure that is unintentional.

Gabriel got this response too a couple of weeks ago with his post on atheist Jews in Israel. This post will still be here tonight and tomorrow, and people who keep Shabbat can add their comments as and when they feel like.

why don’t you post the address ?

It’s in one of the busiest squares in Ashdod – name of the square escapes me. Also one in Gan Yavneh.

Welcome to Yeze’s Place, a British blog site that competes with CiF for the attention of the British public. That’s right, nothing that happens in Israeli society is too irrelevant for us. nothing that happens in Israeli society is too irrelevant for us. nothing that happens in Israeli society is too irrelevant for us. nothing that happens in Israeli society is too irrelevant for us. (It is our policy to repeat ourselves until the readers get sick). With national elections in Britain scheduled for the near future we plan to increase our coverage of local events in Israel.

Note our address: http://www.hurryupyeze.org

You make me laugh :)

But I don’t see how this is irrelevant for anyone. Imagine if Church of England released statements saying Jews shouldn’t have licensed restaurants because they’ll make matzah out of children’s blood, etc.

That would be relevant for not just Jews and Christians in England, but would have wider implications.

I can appreciate that you don’t think this one woman’s case is that important, but if these injustices can be nipped in the bud, then there won’t be more serious incidents.

I hope you don’t think I’m narcissistic enough to want websites renamed after me!

mesquito

“Those flakey pastry triangles sound divine. But I’m already a Christian.”

Beware of the kosher ones in London – you will get a sudden urge in influence members of parliament ….

So can we conclude from this that Yeze is in favour of anyone, be they Christian, Muslim, Druze, non-religious Jewish or whatever, being able to get Kashrut certification? If so, this has a potentially enormous impact upon the whole subject of what is kosher and what is not, particularly, for example, in the wine-making industry. The concept of ‘Yayin Nessech’ will have to be thrown out of the window for a start.
But what the hell; what do the rights of observant Jews in being able to buy food with the confidence that it really is kosher matter, or the potential damage to Israel’s export industry of kosher foodstuffs, when what is really important is that Yeze can continue to push his one-horse agenda in a place where the vast majority of those reading it have no influence whatsoever on the subject?

So can we conclude from this that Yeze is in favour of anyone, be they Christian, Muslim, Druze, non-religious Jewish or whatever, being able to get Kashrut certification?

Absolutely. Loads of Israeli businesses run by Arabs have Kashrut certifications. It’s not down to the beliefs or the ethnicity of the bakers, but down to whether they can keep a business kosher or not.

That’s not just me though, that’s Israeli law. Israeli food inspectors ruled that Pnina could, and did, and Israeli justice has backed her claim up.

Well, it’s still good to be optimistic.

not sure how my comment appeared above yours, despite being posted in response to it!

This piece is still head and shoulders above Freedman’s recent piece on teenage alcohol abuse in Israel.

Matzos, approved by the Beth Din in London, can be bought in Caithness. I have no idea why.

Yeze, could you confirm if Messianic Jews follow kashrut? If so, I am inclined to agree with you. If not, I am inclined to agree with Nursey.

Now, can someone please tell me what kosher wine is?

Yeze:
I’m glad you saw the humour in my comment. It was, of course, aimed at Harry’s Place, and not at you. I sympathize totally with your cause but there is no shortage of injustice in the world in general and in Britain in particular. Everybody gets the point so let’s move on. And as I have said to Seth Freedman many times – nobody in Israel is reading this site so you are not addressing, influencing or educating the Israeli public here, so even if you post a hundred articles here it will have no effect.

I doubt it -people discuss religious anti-Semitic incidents all over the world, whether they occur in the UK, Sweden, Hungary the USA or Egypt.

Thanks Alec – some do and some don’t. But Pnina’s motives are economic rather than religious. She wants to appeal to customers who keep kosher. If you’re not a kosher restaurant you’ll lose business in Israel. If you’re organising a party, for example, unless none of your guests care about kashrut, you’ll need to find a venue with a kosher license.

“But I don’t see how this is irrelevant for anyone. Imagine if Church of England released statements saying Jews shouldn’t have licensed restaurants because they’ll make matzah out of children’s blood, etc.”

Yes, we would discuss it only on Israeli web sites.

Israelinurse:

“But what the hell; what do the rights of observant Jews in being able to buy food with the confidence that it really is kosher matter”.

The whole Israeli kosher food industry is so corrupt I have no confidence whatsoever in any certificate issued for food products or restaurants.

MTC – my comment at 2:30 is in response to yours at 2:34 and my comment at 2:25 is in response to yours at 2:29.

Then, I have less sympathy for Comporati, it has to be said (although this may change if I found that ardently atheist Jews weren’t experiencing similar restrictions).

Had she demonstrated that she *was* capable following kashrut; maybe by passing on site inspections.

It is about whether in the 21st century, it is acceptable to discriminate against members of religious minorities within a democratic country, whether a democratic state should have a ‘window into the souls’ of its citizens, and whether serious measures will be taken against those who issue death threats to middle-aged women trying to make a living.

According to your own links, the judiciary has consistently done the right thing by this woman and the police are taking her claims of death threats seriously. Yes, there are religious nutters campaigning against her business, rather hysterically and to the point of comedy, but the state is not, in this instance, the source of oppression. What further actions do you expect of the state?

Your focus appears , to me, to be too narrowly focussed on your little group’s particular difficulties in Israel. Might it not be wiser to broaden your concerns towards establishing a secular state that neither favours nor oppresses on the basis of religion?

Alec M:

There are thousands of restaurants, bakeries, etc in Israel with kashrut certificates that are owned and operated by secular Jews and often have non-Jewish staff. This is not a problem with the Rabbinate. They regularly or continuously inspect the food and the facilities, issue instructions, etc, and as long as the establishment complies there is no problem.

She did though, she passed the inspection and gained a kosher licence. The Gan Yavneh Rabbinical Council granted her a kosher licence in 2001. In 2004, when they discovered her beliefs, they rescinded it.

There are loads of Arab-run and Jewish atheist-run businesses with kosher licenses. I don’t know if Pnina does keep kashrut personally for religious reasons though.

Yes, there are religious nutters campaigning against her business, rather hysterically and to the point of comedy, but the state is not, in this instance, the source of oppression. What further actions do you expect of the state?

I’m really happy with the state in this.

Your focus appears , to me, to be too narrowly focussed on your little group’s particular difficulties in Israel. Might it not be wiser to broaden your concerns towards establishing a secular state that neither favours nor oppresses on the basis of religion?

Fair enough, but I’m not claiming my focus is the be-all and end-all. It’s one aspect of society but there are loads more which people can and should focus on.

It seems to me that getting kashrut certs is somewhat similar to getting halal certs where I live (singapore). Non-muslims can obtain halal certification as long as they follow guidelines set by the governing religious authority- these guidelines of course make the hiring of a certain number of muslim staff mandatory, as well as regulate which wholesalers you can source supplies from. There are periodic checks and you pay a nice fee to the religious authority yearly for the privilege of being able to serve muslims. It is a rather simple economic transaction.

Notice the justice system works.

Of course running a kosher bakery in Saudi Arabia ……..

I’m surprised that the number and growth rate of Messianic Jews in Israel should be so great as to trigger what looks to me like an overwrought reaction. Yad L’Achim is presumably free to campaign against what they see as wrongful certification. Do they also campaign against the certification of establishments such as those listed by Mindthecrap at 2:43 pm:

There are thousands of restaurants, bakeries, etc in Israel with kashrut certificates that are owned and operated by secular Jews and often have non-Jewish staff. This is not a problem with the Rabbinate. They regularly or continuously inspect the food and the facilities, issue instructions, etc, and as long as the establishment complies there is no problem.

This is an interesting case. I’m glad the state found in her favour.

There danger in anti-missionary groups like Yad L-Achim is violent and serious physical assaults upon their persons and violent invaisions of their religious services inside their own buildings. I fully expect to read that some Nazi-like anti-Christian haters commit acts of violence against the restaurant and invade parties at the restaurant just as they have done in Messianic Christian Israeli churches. This is a serious violation of human rights.

On the other hand I respect the right of anti-Christian hate groups to lawfully organize non-violent boycotts. That’s fair. In like manner I – as an evangelical Gentile Christian – will offer my wealth and protection to help the victims of any persecution. That too is the American Way.

There danger in anti-missionary groups like Yad L-Achim is violent and serious physical assaults upon their persons and violent invaisions of their religious services inside their own buildings. I fully expect to read that some Nazi-like anti-Christian haters commit acts of violence against the restaurant and invade parties at the restaurant just as they have done in Messianic Christian Israeli churches. This is a serious violation of human rights.

On the other hand I respect the right of anti-Christian hate groups to lawfully organize non-violent boycotts. That’s fair. In like manner I – as an evangelical Gentile Christian – will offer my wealth and protection to help the victims of any persecution. That too is the American Way.

A few years ago my non-religious kibbutz decided that it wanted to obtain a kashrut licence for the communal dining room in order to be able to host there Israeli tour groups, many of which were Va’adai Ovdim – works trips.
Despite the fact that all the kitchen’s workers were Jewish, we did not automatically get a licence because as non-observant Jews we were not (rightly) considered au fait with the ins and outs of the rules of kashrut. We therefore had to employ a full-time kashrut supervisor whose job it was to ensure that the restrictions on kosher kitchens were properly adhered to. The licence is only valid whilst such supervision is in place.
It is therefore true that some non-Jewish and non-orthodox businesses have a kosher licence, but only under certain conditions. A business does not have to be kosher, but if one does want to attract a certain type of customer, one has to adhere to the regulations. This has as much to do with trades descriptions as anything else – you cannot advertise your product as being something it isn’t. I personally gravitate towards non-kosher establishments, but if I am going out for a family meal with my mother-in-law, I will check out the venue’s kosher certification first out of respect for her beliefs. That certification does not only guarantee that no non-kosher products are used or that the utensils for dairy and meat products are kept separate, it also guarantees that the establishment does not trade on Shabbat for instance. Do Messianic Jews take Shabbat as their day of rest, or is Sunday their holy day?

Kosher wine has to be produced from start to finish by religiously observant Jews. Obviously, allowing non-observant or non-Jewish people to produce wine and then call it kosher would be deluding people for whom this is important. It may seem silly to some, but it is certainly of no less concern than people who are vegetarian being able to trust that a product labelled as being suitable for their consumption really is so.

What Yeze is in fact promoting is a two-tier system of kashrut certification in an already extremely complicated system which is not without its problems.

why are there no posts on here about muslims who worship jesus? Or christians who worship odin?

Kosher Kingdom in Golders Green is probably the UKs largest Kosher food and wine supermarket . I believe it is still owned by an Asian family . It is mainly Haredi families that shop there in large numbers particularly at Pesach time . They do not appear to have any problems buying from non Jewish sources and in any case would only be purchasing Glatt Kosher which requires very standards of Kashrut . If it’s good enough for the ultra orthodox in Golders I fail to see the problem with the Israeli Rabbinate as it is an assumption on their part that this lady will attempt to baptise diners between courses .Maybe I’m missing something along the way.

What Yeze is in fact promoting is a two-tier system of kashrut certification in an already extremely complicated system which is not without its problems.

No, I favour a one-tier system of kashrut certification in which anyone physically capable and competent of running a kosher business could gain a kosher license. So does Israeli law.

As my late (and partially kosher-keeping) grandmother used to say, when you go to sleep with dogs you are likely to wake up with fleas. It is really the same with the religious establishment in Israel.

Had religion and state been separated in Israel then all matter of kashrut would have been between religious authorities, shops (and food industry) and those customers who are bothered by this. In that case, if the Orthodox rabbinical authority in Ashdod wishes to deny a kashrut certificate to Pnina Comforti, it should be within their right – as it should be within Messianic Jews’ right to issue their own kashrut certificates. When the religion is in the private domain, it is up to private individuals to sort such things out.

However, religion and state are not separated in Israel, at the behest of organised religion. (Specifically, organised Jewish Orthodoxy, but I would have imagined that on that they have a wholehearted support of organised Sunni Islam.) And at that instance kashrut is no longer an individual religious requirement, it is a matter of the state, something in which the non-religious and those of other religions have a stake. That’s why Israeli courts were in position to do the right thing – as they did, apparently. The fact that kashrut ceased to be a religious matter and became a secular one is entirely the doing of the religious establishment.

In addition… Everybody with eyes in their head would know that, while kashrut is evidently important and vital to a significant proportion of Israeli population, it is also a huge scam. It brings significant revenue stream (which everybody buying food is financing) to organised religion and it employs an army of “kashrut inspectors” (often relatives and friends of those in the local Religious Council) whose upkeep is another charge on the cost of food and whose main “labour” is to watch other people working hard. Quite often, on a weekly basis, the “kashrut certificate” of a shop or a food factory is removed somewhere in Israel – virtually always not because they actually sold something not kosher but because they didn’t pay enough.

Finally… Idle opinions have been expressed above on the issue of cheese-filled vs potato-filled burekas. Experts in these issues will tell you that both are bested by the mushroom-filled magic triangles, and that all are trumped by spinach-filled burekas. Magic!

And perhaps this is the danger of Messianic Jews selling spinach-filled burekas: the latter might be considered as an evidence that the messiah has already come. On the other hand, I can imagine Hassidic Jews claiming that spinach-filled burekas are a foretaste of the messiah-to-come. And Lubavichers claiming that they are an evidence of the messiandom of their late Rebbe. I, as an atheist, am happy just to enjoy their taste.

The simple level of obsessiveness displayed here by Yeze, make me doubt the judgment of both the group and of HP.

Israel is Jeiwsh, Mr. Yeze. If you don’t like that or don’t like its brand of Judaism, then found your own country.

Its brand of Judaism? Israel doesn’t have one brand of Judaism, it has six million brands of Judaism.

Plus, in this case I’m on Israel’s side. Do you also doubt the Israeli legal authorities, Mr. Stone, or just HP?

If you don’t like that or don’t like its brand of Judaism, then found your own country.

Why should he? And why (expletive deleted) do you, Edward Stone, appropriate to yourself the right to say who should and who shouldn’t live in Israel?

“Found your own country”? Israel was founded by almost exclusively secular Jews. They extended their toil and they shed their blood so that Jewish people, whether secular or from any kind of religious tradition, have a national home. If anybody reading HP has no idea what “hutzpa” means, well – read Edward Stone’s “contribution” and you’ll understand.

Edward Stone:
Do you know that there are 5 or 6 different religious authorties in Israel issuing kashrut certificates (Chief Rabbi, Badatz, Machfoud, Landau, etc) ? Each Orthodox group trusts only itself and not the others. I recently saw a kashrut certificate in a Tel-Aviv restaurant issued by an organisation that I had not heard of before. When I checked on the internet I found denunciations of them by the Chief rabbinate, etc, claiming that they were frauds.

As someone noted above, Yeze can issue his own kosher certificates.

were those burekas filled with cheese or potatoes?

Only spinach ones are any good.

Yeze – I’m very pleased to see you here again. You open a window on aspects of life in Israel, and the HPers can do with getting out of their normal ruts at times. I hope you will post again, You don’t dominate the postongs at all.

There are plenty of other subjects. Today there is one Yeze post and about 12 or so others. That some people are indignant about your dominating the postings shows a lot about their prejudices.The moderators know that fair is fair. and you do indeed demonstrate that there are some nasty aspects of life in Israel.

Y’ad Lachim is an inedible swine, and the commenters who offered to send him money, even worse inedible swine. There is no way of getting around this ugliness.

It seem tome that Comparati is simply making good food – it whets my appetite – but I doubt that delicious food could entice me into a new religion andI more than doubt whether Comparati tries to entice her custiomers into a new religion. It wouldn’t be good business.

If I lived in Israel, would I be able to find somewhere where I could eat egg and bacon or a pork chops?? Do shops sell pork at all? Im Britain you can find every variety of cuisine, including kosher.

Not long ago I had a pretty orthodox Jewish friend visiting – I’ll call him Moses. I thoroughly enjoyed following his customs and kosher diet. We bought meat at an Arab butcher’s where there was no pork, I’m not sure the rest of the meat was strictly kosher. But Moses was capoable of bending the rules now and again.

The Shabbat was supposed to consist of a visit to the synagogue and whatever follows that, but the programme of trips we had arranged, induced him to skip the synagogue just for that day. Back from one of our trips, we wanted to share one pizza. I ordered a vegetarian pizza with the addtion of spicey pork sausage. I thought that I would eat the sausages, but then realised that the juice of the sausages would have seeped into the vegetables. Moses said, “Never mind, I’ll pretend not to notice.”

Moses cooked Latkes and Awickelte Kraut which I devoured.

The whole idea of ordaining universally what you can and can’t eat seems grotesque to me. The rules should apply to committed adherents to the fold but to no one else. I can’t believe things are as bad as that in Israel!!!???

“Its brand of Judaism? Israel doesn’t have one brand of Judaism, it has six million brands of Judaism.”

In that case anyone can believe anything and call themselves Jewish. Organized religion? meh, just believe what you want and call it Judaism.

Messianic “Jews” are not, will not, and cannot consider themselves Jewish. I respect your right to believe what you want, but one of the fundamental tenets of Judaism is that G-d does not have a human form. If you are to disregard this, what else do you want to change and still be called Jewish?

Felix

if you lived in Israel you could buy bacon and pork chops without any problems, and shellfish is available in most restaurants in and around Tel Aviv, so I’m not sure why you think that ‘things are so bad in Israel’. You really should not believe every idiocy you read, maybe you should actually visit Israel and find out for yourself

I have also never met a ‘pretty orthodox’ jew who would pretend not to notice pork juice in his pizza base – I am not sure I believe this story

I like aubergine&tomato borekas!

Felix – a significantly high proportion of Jewish Israelis, even if they are not particularly observant in other fields, will only eat kosher food. I personally would not like to see a situation in which they have to go through the contortions required of Jews who keep kosher in the UK (particularly those outside London) in order to find suitable foodstuffs.

To try to approach this from a different angle for the sake of clarity, consider this. In parts of Yorkshire many farmers are not allowed to use pesticides etc. due to restrictions by various bodies such as Defra as they are in a National Park or an area of SSI (special scientific interest). This means that for all intents and purposes the animals which go to slaughter have been reared organically, but in order for the meat to be classified as organic, the farmers, according to what they tell me, would have to pay in order to receive special certification, which would raise the eventual cost of the meat. Should farmers be allowed to self-declare their produce organic and market it as such even if it has not been certified by the appropriate bodies? Or do we prefer a process of certification which adds to the cost of organic food, but ensures that those who do wish to eat organic can be confident that the product they buy is really to the standard they expect?
In the vast majority of Western countries there is some sort of food and hygiene regulation. In the UK your council tax pays for inspections of supermarkets and cafes by the appropriate local council department.
Whether a product is designated kosher, halal, organic, vegetarian, vegan, free-trade or simply fit for human consumption, there are always regulatory bodies (with associated costs) involved and bench-mark standards to be set by those bodies. Self-certification is not a practical or acceptable option.

Felix:

“If I lived in Israel, would I be able to find somewhere where I could eat egg and bacon or a pork chops?? Do shops sell pork at all? ”

Typical example of the stunning ignorance displayed by many posters on these threads, many of whom consider themselves experts on Israel. FFS, why don’t you bother checking facts before you spew nonsense here ?

I don’t think Felix is a ‘typical’ example, mindthe crap. His stunning ignorance is in a class all of its own – as is his chutzpah in pronouncing on aspects of Israeli life he has no clue about.

I had been under the impression that Yeze was a woman.

I am a religious Jew from Israel. You have this all wrong as only parts of the story are printed. First and foremost, Kashrut is a Religious law for Jews. They are not trying to stop her from operating her bakery, they are trying to stop her from having a “religious” ie, Orthodox Jewish certificate. They did offer to give the certificate if she met certain obligations–which, other bakeries that are run by Orthodox Jews–are obligated, and do meet. Why, should she not have to meet the same standards? As for feeding a pie to unknowing Jews, that was plain nasty. While we don’t believe it will kill or convert us, some of us feel that spiritually we are obliged to meet certain goals in all areas of our lives, including what we ingest. Call it a spiritual or emotional thing, but it is our choice and nobody has the right to deny or trick us into breaking our obligations. As for the missionaries–they are rampant and destructive here. They freely admit they will go to any means to take a Jewish Soul. They prey on children and old people creating divisiveness and stress. Only a Jew can understand the heartbreak of seeing a Jewish child afraid to have a bar mitzvah because his xtian friends have brainwashed him. NOTE: Jews Do Not go around trying to convert anybody while there are people who come to our country–a Jewish country–for the purpose of taking our souls. Nobody is stopping them from coming to our country to carry out what they call personal worship. But when they are trying to invade our worship it is an infringement on our rights, yet we are expected to applaud this. I don’t expect people to understand, but maybe they should reflect on the demands for “freedom of religion” and give some thought to the fact that maybe, Jews should be allowed freedom of their religion in their own country–we are fast being denied it in any other country in the world.

Bigots!!

One hundred support for what Nili has said. Once again I wonder why HP gives this missionary sect carte blanche to peddle its wares on this website. It has its own website if people want to read this stuff. Would HP agree to allow Chabad/Aish Hatorah/Yad L’Achim to post opposing views? if not why not?

israelinurse

I am surprised by your reaction. If you refer to the original links you will see that the very same rabbinate is more than happy to grant Kashrut certificates to Arab run businesses notably restaurants.

I would think it is better to see this for the politics of Halakha that it is and is yet another extension of the effort to control Israel’s rabbinates in accordance with ever stricter notions of who comprises an observent jew.

This same ‘ultra Halakha’ extends increasingly to those wishing to perform aliyah, non halakhically ‘confirmed’ Jews wishing to marry in Israel and others wishing to gain residency, for example the foreign born spouse of an Israeli Jewish man with children born in Israel.

Worse the politics of Halakha not only extends its reach into fairly ordinary aspects of israeli’s lives by inisting that the final decision on how observent is observent to a group of ultra orthodox activists, this politics now spreads to the diaspora as it seeks to control the recognition of conservative and orthodox rabbinates.

It seems that ironically increasingly diasporic jews especially converts (and especially in the US) can never be Jewish enough.

In the case of the kashrut the hypocrisy is laid bare where the certificate is to be awarded by its conformity to Halakhic ritual procedures, and as I said they have never had any problem with issuing the certificate to Arabs who conform to the halakha as determined by the inspectorate.

The fact that Pnina has complied with these strict criteria has never been disputed.

The court simply, and correctly ruled that no extraneous matters could b e used to deny the certificate.

One fear stated was that if Pnina offered someone some good cheese for example she might slip in a missionary invitation to come to a congregational meeting

Not only are her cakes and pies excellent appartently but her missionising zeal might extend to other delicious food items as well…
I can see it now….

Jews choose cheese for Jesus.

Its quite a mouthful try saying that after half a bottle of kosher wine.

Yeze

Israel doesn’t have one brand of Judaism, it has six million brands of Judaism.

And yours is NOT one of them, according to most Israelis. Thats their decision, not HP’s. If you don’t like it, move.

Do you also doubt the Israeli legal authorities, Mr. Stone…?

I haven’t doubted anyone. I just wish you’d stop whining about the trivial problems of Jewish converts to Christianity in the state of Israel. So far as I’m concerned, that state has a right to determine its own identity and in fact to discriminate against converts. Given both its mission to preserve Judaism, and the tiny size of the country, and the severity of the problems it faces, Israel’s policies towards converts are its own problem, and it’s not for Christan or Muslim societies to dictate internal policy to the Jewish state.

Especially since so few of Christian or Muslim countries are coompletely free of religion themselves.

Finally, the Israeli courts decided the way you wanted. So why are you stil whining – and in a foreign blog, to boot?

And before people accuse me of knowing zero about Israel well I should say that I have read around this and the fact that was not in dispute before the court was that Pnina conformed to all the relevant halakhic criteria for awarding the kashrut as she had in the past.

The decision to deny her the certificate was based solely upon her supposed corrupting influence as a messianic Jew.

The removal of the certificate only after the discovery of her particular religious beliefs (irrelevant to the awarding of the Kashrut as it is routinely given to Arab businesses) was seen by the court quite rightly as saying way beyond their powers and resulting in illegal civil harm to the woman’s business.

I should further say that having a far from merely trivial interest in the process of conversion and in aliyah itself it is obvious that the increasing ultra orthodox control of the israeli Chief rabbinate and its influence on the interior ministry is a positive disincentive to both conversion and aliyah.

For a non Jew to consider the dedication and commitment of almost any programme of conversion to Judaism whetner folllowing a reform or conservative or even orthodox (especially if they are so much as in dialogue with conservative jews) to almost certainly findingoneself non halakhically jewish according to the israeli rabbinate is hardly an incentive.

After the experience of aliyah by nominal and largely non-observant Russian Jews arguably this is the exact intention of this activism to have fewer Israelis but more observant Jews according to an ultimately politically not religiously motivated interpretation of the rules.

But in a time of growing anti-semitism and its effects on diasporic Jews the number making aliyah is declining somewhat rather than rising (check the figures).

Balance, Nili and Nachman are correct, particularly Nachman’s closing question.

S.O.M., swearing at me isn’t very professional.

If anybody reading HP has no idea what “hutzpa” means, well – read Edward Stone’s “contribution” and you’ll understand.

Abusing me is all the less professional.

“Found your own country”? Israel was founded by almost exclusively secular Jews. They extended their toil and they shed their blood so that Jewish people, whether secular or from any kind of religious tradition, have a national home.

* I highly doubt their vision included Christians like Yeze.
* Israel has long since permitted itself to vary from the strict socialist secular founding fathers — often to the better.
* Israel has every right, if the democratic majority so desires, to discriminate against those who “convert out”. Denying a kashrut certificate isn’t exactly on the scale of beheading apostates, and frankly there’s no reason for foreigners to waste ink on it. It’s an internal Israeli decision.
* You seem ignorant of the long history of masorti/Sephardi Zionism, long preceding secular Zionism. Your contemptuous attitude twoards that tradition is typical of the attitude driving masorti and Sephardi Jews to Shas.

By the way, I practise no religion. I simply think Jews have a right to determine their own identity, including a right of orthodox Jews not to have either secularity or Christianity shoved down their throats.

Strange that HP supports secular Jews, atheist Jews, and Christian Jews – but never masorti or haredi Jews. In other words, anything is okay except traditional Judaism. Sounds too much like the BNP for my comfort.

Harvey

The problem is exactly that the Israeli rabbinate, they would have that store closed down in a week if they could.

The point is I think that the activities of the Israeli rabbinate having the geo-political influence it does on the diaspora is fair game for any non-Israeli blog to comment upon not least one that spends so much time defending Israel as a democratic secular country albeit a Jewish one.

Point of order, is Chabad not one of the more genteel outreach programmes?

Is Edward Stone a Jew?

>> And yours is NOT one of them, according to most Israelis. Thats their decision, not HP’s. If you don’t like it, move.

D’you take the BNP line on all social policy, or just one involving Messianic Jews?

>> So far as I’m concerned, that state has a right to determine its own identity and in fact to discriminate against converts.

And it decided against your opinion. Which may be why you’re whining on a foreign blog.

>> S.O.M., swearing at me isn’t very professional.

Why the fuck not?

>> Abusing me is all the less professional.

Dry your eyes, you fuckwit.

>> Strange that HP supports secular Jews, atheist Jews, and Christian Jews – but never masorti or haredi Jews.

That’s HP’s choice. If you don’t like it, go to another blog.

>> In other words, anything is okay except traditional Judaism.

You haven’t really thought through the HP support for Israel thing, have you?

>> Sounds too much like the BNP for my comfort.

Except for the bit about supporting Jews. Idiot.

Edward wrote

” I just wish you’d stop whining about the trivial problems of Jewish converts to Christianity in the state of Israel. ”

Try making that remark to Ami Ortiz.

http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/01/breaking-news-yaakov-teitel-arrested-ami-ortiz-case/

Or the Messianic Jews of Arad

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=421251&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Israel proudly stands for democracy and religious freedom in a region all too short on both. Many Messianic Jews live, work and worship in perfect freedom there. Why shouldn’t all of them do so? And why should you trivialise Yeze’s justified concerns as ‘whining’?

People often use the analogy of the ‘miner’s canary’ about Israel; perhaps Messianic Jews are the ‘miner’s canary’ within Israel, and the way they are treated is indicative of what could happen to everyone’s freedom under Israeli law if theirs is not respected and protected.

Huldah, you forgot to mention that Edward is coming across as a nasty little tosser.

Alec, I am afraid that Edward Stone is not – how to say it – the smartest cookie in a jar.

And the moron has already deduced to whom I have and whom I don’t have contempt. So, let me set the record clear. I have absolutely no contempt to the Sefaradi Zionist tradition from the 19th Century á la Rabbi Alkalay (and neither to the Ashkenazi one á la Rabbi Kalisher). I don’t have great practical admiration to either because their Zionism was at the level of prayers and pipe dreams: they didn’t start a national movement with all its practicalities. But I have no contempt toward them, why should I?

I have, however, contempt toward you, Edward Stone. I have contempt for you because you want Israel as some sort of Biblical theme park, not as a country which is a home to all its citizens, which allows all of them, whether religious (and whatever their particular form of worship) or not, equal right and opportunity to thrive and be respected. And you want it as a theme park because for you, like for the Communists of old and Islamists or Trotskyites of now, abstract nouns trump real people.

And so, Edward Stone, given that you have the sheer hutzpah to tell people that they should leave their home and go somewhere else, why don’t you repair to North Korea, say, a place run according to your wretched logic?

That’s HP’s choice. If you don’t like it, go to another blog.

I haven’t published article after article in the third-party press (say, Canadian) bitching about HP – as has Yeze bitching about Israel.

You haven’t really thought through the HP support for Israel thing, have you?

Actually, I have but you haven’t. Apparently HP only supports a secular or a Christian Israel. Masorti and haredi Jews aren’t welcome at HP. Consider the number of threads – whether about messianic Jews or about Yishai – that could well find a home in the Guardian or other Israel-bashing venue.

Except for the bit about supporting Jews.

What about supporting masorti and haredi Jews? Oh, I forgot, HP couldn’t give a tinker’s damn about them. In point of fact, HP seems to suport only those Jews who behave as HP demands – they must be either secular Jews or Christan Jews. That’s not exactly tolerant of tradition Judaism.

Idiot.

You’re as professional as Muffin, aren’t you?

Globally, there may be u to 2 milion orthodox or ultra-orthodox Jews. They have a right to exist and to be thrown a bone occasionally – and to have their opinion taken into accont in the policies of the Jewish state. Oh, I forgot, you (and HP) have a problem with that, don’t you?

I have contempt for you because you want Israel as some sort of Biblical theme park, not as a country which is a home to all its citizens, which allows all of them, whether religious (and whatever their particular form of worship) or not, equal right and opportunity to thrive and be respected. And you want it as a theme park because for you, like for the Communists of old and Islamists or Trotskyites of now, abstract nouns trump real people.

And so, Edward Stone, given that you have the sheer hutzpah to tell people that they should leave their home and go somewhere else, why don’t you repair to North Korea, say, a place run according to your wretched logic?

Well, well, SOS, you’re expert at abuse but not at thought. So, let me spell it out for you in the simplest of terms, so that you can understand:

* I said nothing about “Biblical theme park”. Those are your words which you’re trying very hard to put in my mouth. I said rather tha Israel has the right to determine its own internal policies without interference from the UK, and that furthermore those policies should take the religious into account. They’re part of Israel, too. Denying a kashruth certificate to a convert isn’t a tremendously fanatic demand. After all, they could demand she be beheaded.

* Moving elsewhere is precisely what half a million or more Jews did at Israel’s founding – moved to Israel to escape Christian Europe. Christianity’s 1600-year persecution of Jews is reason enough for Israel to decide (if it wishes) to limit the practise of Christianity in Israel.

* Demanding to be accepted as a Christian convert in Israel is about as sensible as demanding to speak only French in the UK.

As for “North Korean” logic, you need a bit of a lesson in it yourself. Denying a kashrut certificate to one convert to Christianity doesn’t make Israel become North Korea.

And in point of fact the cert wasnt denied. So why the tempest in a teacup? Oh, yes, secular Jews and Christian Jews need a place to vent their hatred of traditional Jews.

I haven’t published article after article in the third-party press (say, Canadian) bitching about HP – as has Yeze bitching about Israel.

Lesse, of the 15 Recent Posts on HP:

[*] Two are about Latin America;

[*] Two are about Iranian democracy;

[*] One is about the Staggers’ doe-eyed approval of Israel’s mortal foes;

[*] Three are about British Islamists;

[*] Two are about opposition to antisemitism, and pride in political Jews in the UK;

[*] One is about fitba;

[*] One is about the EU;

[*] One is about common criminality;

[*] One is about Sarah Palin;

[*] One, I repeat 1/15th of air-time is about Messianic Jews.

You fucking moron.

>> Actually, I have but you haven’t. Apparently HP only supports a secular or a Christian Israel. Masorti and haredi Jews aren’t welcome at HP.

As I said, you fuckwit. One recent post on Messianic Jews cited the Failed Messiah’s blog.

>> What about supporting masorti and haredi Jews? Oh, I forgot, HP couldn’t give a tinker’s damn about them.

Once more, are you Jewish or simply a tosser (not that the two are mutually exclusive)? Not giving a tinker’s damn would require articles which are in active opposition to Masorti/Haredi Judaism, rather than bending to your demands. Where are they?

If you genuinely believe that the BNP supports any form of Israel, I suggest you’re a complete fucking moron.

>> You’re as professional as Muffin, aren’t you?

Every bit, sugar-lips.

>> They have a right to exist and to be thrown a bone occasionally – and to have their opinion taken into accont in the policies of the Jewish state. Oh, I forgot, you (and HP) have a problem with that, don’t you?

No, just nasty little tossers.

I’m glad that the Christian Missionaries who try to pass themselves off as Jews are increasingly being seen for what they are, both in Israel and on HP. I don’t approve of violence of any sort against them, but I do support peaceful campaigns to expose them for what they are, particularly their use of the deceit of calling themselves Jews. I hope that there will continue to be peaceful but vigorous and unceasing action to ensure that any potential customer of the bakery run by the Christian posing-as-Jew will know what it represents, and that its Christian patron is someone who supports Christian missionary attempts to convert Jews.

Edward Stone’s point that HP only really supports those Jews who are secular Jews or Christian Jews is right on the button, apart from the fact that there’s no such thing as Christian Jews, though there are Christians who are of of Jewish ethnic origin or who converted from Judaism. I’d just add that for genuine full HP approval they have to be secular left-wing Jews. Secular right-wing or apolitical Jews can expect no approval from HP. So much for the support of human rights.

>> I’m glad that the Christian Missionaries who try to pass themselves off as Jews are increasingly being seen for what they are, both in Israel and on HP.

Considering that the Israeli High Court has just ruled *against* your stance, Judy, this either is monumental stupidly or sinister support for scum like Yaakov Teitel.

When are you leaving for Israel, or d’you intend to continue glomming off this country?

Alex

Huldah, you forgot to mention that Edward is coming across as a nasty little tosser.

Oh, I see, disagreement isn’t permitted with the HP-approved weltanschauung, eh? Doing a great imitation of the SWP, the Guardian, etc, aren’t you?

Huldah

You mean to imply that every Israeli is perfectly safe from threats on the basis of religious identity? Did you just make Ahamdinejad disappear? Further, Teitel has been arrested. Or do you wish Israel to stamp out all religious Jews?

Yeze’s columns are certainly whining, cosidering that
* a kashrut cert denial isn’t exactly murder (no matter that you’ve made that comparison)
* in both cases (Ortiz, Pnina) the Israeli courts have done what the seculars and messianics expect.

So why the continued whining?

Many Messianic Jews live, work and worship in perfect freedom there. Why shouldn’t all of them do so?

Because Israel doesn’t have the same obligations to Christians as to Jews.

It’s Alec, Edward.

>> Oh, I see, disagreement isn’t permitted with the HP-approved weltanschauung, eh? Doing a great imitation of the SWP, the Guardian, etc, aren’t you?

I bet you’re even funnier in the flesh.

Once again, what is your investment in this? As you’re demanding lesser rights for decreed groups of people, you damn well should confirm if you’re: A) Israeli; B) Jewish.

Alec, your language could use some refinement.

Once more, are you Jewish or simply a tosser (not that the two are mutually exclusive)?

Another logic-deprived comment – the fallacy of plurium interrogationum. I’m not Jewish but think the rights and views of religious Jews deserve some respect, particularly in a Jewish state.

Judy

Secular right-wing or apolitical Jews can expect no approval from HP. So much for the support of human rights.

Spot on, Judy.

Nor modern orthodox, nor ultra-orthodox (can expect approval from HP) So much for the support of human rights.

Now, try explaing that to HP without being abused for your trouble. I’m beginning to understand why orthodox Jews would hate secular.

>> Alec, your language could use some refinement.

You cannot tell me or anyone else what to do, you pathetic middle-class nobody? Compared to your and Judy’s, at best, disregard of the actions of scum like Teitel; at worst, lingering approval of them, I’ll go for a potty mouth any day.

>> I’m not Jewish but think the rights and views of religious Jews deserve some respect, particularly in a Jewish state.

If that includes imposing on others who present no inconvenience to their personal lives, tough titty. Anyone would think that religious Jews are being obliged to shop at Comporati’s premises, or buy wares they haven’t personally sourced.

In the spirit of your attitude, unless you’re prepared to live as a non-Haredi/Masorti in your vision of Israel, shut the fuck up.

Alec

This is not the first article published by Yeze. In a foreign blog, it will have little effect. So why do so?

Is Edward Stone a Jew?

It’s not really your business, is it? You rabbit on about religious freedom, then make consideration of thoughts dependent upon the commenter’s religion?

Once again, what is your investment in this?

The same investment as HP, only more so. HP wants to interfere in the Jewish state’s internal policies, and I think HP should leave the Jewish state alone to decide its own fate.

>> This is not the first article published by Yeze.

You asserted that HP was pre-occupied with validating Messianic Jews’ opnions. Of late, it’s shown as great a pre-occupation with fitba.

>> In a foreign blog, it will have little effect. So why do so?

Why blog at all?

>> It’s not really your business, is it?

Read my remark at 0033 hrs, paying especial attention to “As you’re demanding lesser rights for decreed groups of people, you damn well should confirm [...]“.

>> You rabbit on about religious freedom, then make consideration of thoughts dependent upon the commenter’s religion?

You’re not the full shekel, are you?

>> HP wants to interfere in the Jewish state’s internal policies, and I think HP should leave the Jewish state alone to decide its own fate.

This coming from a non-Jew who has spent the evening havering against the decision of the Israeli judicary. You could not make it up, but you just have.

Thanks Felix, your comment made me feel a lot better. It seems some commenters would rather get me to justify my right to comment on these incidents, rather than attempting to defend Yad L’Achim’s actions, which any moral person knows are indefensible.

Not being able to answer the substance of the argument, they attack the messenger instead.

Also – what Alec said 100%.

Am I the only one here who’s thinking of Felix Quigly?

Hi Mettaculture. I’m very glad to see you here!
I’m not sure why you are surprised by my reaction. My point is that I, even as a secular Israeli, think that it is important that my fellow countrymen and women who do observe religious Jewish law should feel comfortable in doing so in the world’s only Jewish state. If they can’t feel comfortable in Israel, then where can they?

Religiously observant Jews are increasingly being stereotyped and coming under attack from a highly intolerant Left, amongst others. Repeatedly we see religious Jews being branded as ‘right wing extremists’ en masse. Just as I do not enjoy being put into boxes because of who or what I am, I see no reason to remain silent when the same is done to others.

That is not to say that there are not things which I would like to see change, but the way to instigate these changes is through social and political campaign within Israel, and not through a complete rejection of orthodox Judaism which contributes much of value to Israeli life as a whole.

Judy’s comment abbreviated:

I hope that there will continue to be peaceful but vigorous and unceasing action to ensure that any potential customer of the bakery run by the Christian posing-as-Jew will know what it represents, and that its Christian patron is someone who supports Christian missionary attempts to convert Jews [...] So much for the support of human rights.

I see no one has answered my question about allowing an opposing view to the missionary views posted here. Easy to call Yad L’achim all sorts of terrible names but from this side of the fence i.e. Israeli Orthodox Jewish their actions to prevent the peddling of views which are an anathema to me and my co-religionists are to be applauded and supported and as such are morally defensible. The Jews have had to suffer the torment of missionaries (sometimes both in a physical as well as a psychological sense) in their host countries in the diaspora for the last two millenia and were powerless to prevent this since in the main it was actioned or supported by those host countries.His sect’s morally indefensible attempts to bully and subvert the young from the religion of their birth which I view as nothing less than an assault will not be tolerated in Israel. What saddens me however is that posters here who believe in freedom of expression support the actions of people who target the young and weak to bring them over to their views without knowing the full facts about the tactics they employ to do this – views which have as much relevance to Judaism as does Roman Catholicism – it certainly is not a legitimate strand of Judaism as he would like you to believe. Am I to suppose those of his supporters here would equally support other sects like Scientology and the Moonies who employ similar tactics of persuasion?

And if that summary of Judy’s post is accurate – sounds fine by me.
The story isn’t quite as simple as those nasty Orthodox Jews refusing the certification with no reason – she refused a kosher superviser. Atheist and non-religious Jews may not be religious (obviously) but they don’t preach a religion which is antithetical to Judaism.

I applaud the coments by Nili, Nachman, Judy, Israelinurse (you were good on the TV last week by the way – and your comments on this thread, as a secular Jewess carry a lot of weight).

As to some of the other osters; Felix – is this some kind of joke? Your friend, ‘Moses’ is certainly nowhere near what anybody would call Orthodox (if he exists at all) and Alec M – you come across as a very unpleasant person indeed. (You are welcome to swear at me as much as you like and prove my point, I won’t cry.)

The point here is not the JforJs , but the arbitrary decisions of the Rabbinate in granting Kashrut certificates. There have been several examples in the past, none involving missionaries, for example:
- the “MiVeMe” salad factory
- hotels that have belly-dancers at weddings
- etc, etc.
This goes together with the arbitrary behaviour of the Rabbinic courts in matters concerning marriage and divorce and these are the reasons why secular Jews avoid the Rabbinate at all cost.

Israelinurse:
“Repeatedly we see religious Jews being branded as ‘right wing extremists’ en masse.”.
We have seen how the Mafdal has transformed itself from a religious socialist party to what it is now. Ask yourself whay Meimad, with outstanding leaders such as Melchior amd Ravitski, never succeeded in electing a member to the Knesset when running independently.

Well, there is certainly a fair share of rabid orthodoxy on this thread which does not represent my idea of Israel. Of course I’m not an expert. That is why I write, hoping for corrections and information. If the Messianic Jews are as violent about converting as some suggest, I would of course not like that. But this is a question Yeze should answer.

For those of you who don’t believe my story about Moses and the pork juice pizza, he happens to be the father of someone whom we all know very well on HP. We were students together at University in S.A. He is meticulous about following orthodox practices and would NEVER eat pork. With my pizza, I placed him in front of a fait accompli; his gracious gesture is one I’d expect from wise Jews. For all I know he went away feeling sick or bad afterwards. He is observant, but not rigid.

When are you leaving for Israel, or d’you intend to continue glomming off this country?

Wouldn’t you be better off writing such antisemitic stuff in the Independent? At least they’d pay you for it.

his gracious gesture is one I’d expect from wise Jews

You could not be any more snottily patronising if you tried.

This man is NOT an Orthodox Jew. End of.
Try writing about something you have a clue about.

Gordon Bennet:

Amen.

Felix:
BTW, if you knew your ‘friend’ was so ‘meticulous’ about his ‘observance’, why did you even think about ordering pork sausages. If you keep on insisting that he is observant (which he isn’t) the only possible conclusion is that you’re a pig.

Edward wrote

Huldah

‘You mean to imply that every Israeli is perfectly safe from threats on the basis of religious identity? Did you just make Ahamdinejad disappear? Further, Teitel has been arrested. Or do you wish Israel to stamp out all religious Jews?’

I’m not implying anything. I’m stating what I believe to be the case: that Israel (a secular state) promises freedom of worship without harassment to all of its citizens, provided that the form of worship does not break the law; you appear to disagree with this when you write,

‘Because Israel doesn’t have the same obligations to Christians as to Jews.’

You’re entitled to your view. But I believe the law of Israel disagrees with you.

Judy

It’s disappointing that you write about Jewish Israelis who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah as though they are some sort of 5th column within Israel.

A person of strong religious conviction yourself – and one who has been vilified for daring to uphold it – might reflect that accusing messianic Jews of deceit because their convictions and experience have led them in a different direction from your own is hardly upholding the human rights which you have defended so eloquently both here and your own excellent blog.

Felix

sorry I tried to be as civilized as possible but you are really full of shit, incredibly condescending and to top it all off, outrageously unknowledgeable about the subject you have decided to discuss

MindTheCrap – spot on!! Felix if your friend was truly observant and you were a man of respect, you would have ordered a pizza Margherita, coglione!
and fyi – just because I think you are a moron, it doesn’t mean I am ‘rabid orthodox’ in fact I eat EVERYTHING including prosciutto and am obviously far more open minded than you are

alecM – why are you so aggressive? you need to get laid badly.

Excuse my ignorance, but can anybody please enlighten me on how bad this convert-the-jews situation in Israel actually is?
I mean, it takes a pretty stupid, historically-disconnceted jew to be converted, so why do we care this much about that handfull of idiots?

Felix, if missionaries were to use violence, I’d support their arrest and condemn them fully.

As far as I know they haven’t, except in a case in Arad involving a Messianic leader and some Yad L’Achim activists, in which I think the Yad L’Achim tried to burn down his building and he tried to run some of them over. Both of which acts I condemn fully.

MTC – I think that it is important to be able to distinguish between wood and trees. When I step back and look at how Israeli attitudes have changed in the 30+ years that I have been there I see some very encouraging things.
30 years ago, for instance, no-one talked about a two-state solution. Today that is accepted as mainstream.

Yes, there are sometimes issues with particular Rabbinate decisions regarding kashrut and other subjects, but bear in mind that there are also different examples of a more open-minded attitude – I refer to the Rabbinical Councils of Emek HaYarden and Ramat HaGolan amongst others. Unfortunately, no-one is interested in writing a post on a foreign blog about how Rav Didi met secular kibbutzniks halfway in order to allow them to run a tourism business open on Shabbat, but with a kashrut licence, or how Rav Shuki compromises with kibbutzniks who want a non-religious burial service.

These issues are internal Israeli affairs which should be thrashed out over a cup of coffee in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. There is no value whatsoever in opening them to discussion in a forum where the majority of people do not even have voting rights in Israel.

Of course, the writer of this article is well aware of that and his aim is not to promote dialogue between religious and non-religious Israelis or Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis, (the majority of whom have never heard of HP) but to magnify the perceived persecution of his sect -i.e. to employ an internal social issue for political (and other) ends.

Nachman – there have been numerous attempts made by a variety of posters on previous threads of this nature to explain why Jews (and not only religiously observant ones) find missionary activity in Israel so offensive, but they repeatedly fall upon the deaf ears of readers with a generally anti-religious agenda and a seemingly wilful ignorance of history when it comes to Jews and missionaries.

These issues are internal Israeli affairs which should be thrashed out over a cup of coffee in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.

Only once you’ve checked that the person serving you coffee hasn’t spiked your drink with missionary powder!

Jewlia and others, it is sardony. Edward had an insect in his rectum about propriety and how others were speaking to him, whilst calling for lesser rights to be applied by one confessional group (which he had no intention of joining) on another (which he had no intention of joining) in another country (which he had no intention of moving to).

Fuck him.

Nursey’s analogy of organic certificates is apt. I would expect anyone touting it, either on a product or business, would have passed relevent industry standard tests and satisfied the regulatory authorities that they employ someone with the necessary qualifications. That someone, however, could be anyone who demonstrates a knowledge of kashrut and not limited to magical thinking that only a religious Jew is capable of understanding it.

If religious Jews are that concerned about the providence of their food, it really is their responsibility to check individual suppliers. No-one forces them to frequent a named business.

That said, I see organic as a secular version of kashrut. The only product I seek out is organic milk.

Israelinurse:

“Unfortunately, no-one is interested in writing a post on a foreign blog ….”

See my post at 21 November 2009, 2:09 pm.

alec – do you have any knowledge of the laws of kashrut at all? It isn’t as easy as don’t eat pork and don’t have a cheeseburger (even if the meat is kosher). No-one is saying that religious Jews have a ‘magical’ understanding and such an arrogant statement is simply insulting. The laws of kashrut are incredibly complex. you may not believe in it but the laws are there and if peolpe want to follow it then they need to trust the supervising authority. That’s why they don’t employ any Tom, Dick or Alec (or, G-d forbid, Yeze) to do the job.

Well, I went to a Chinese restaurant the other night, and guess who I saw? The owners of the local kosherie!

MTC – exactly! :)

Moreover, as Yeze will probably say (and I am in no position to assess the veracity of that statement), at least some Messianic Jews don’t wish to preach or convert, just to lead their lives in a country which they regard as (also) their own in what they regard as Jewish manner.

Totally.

Let us separate different issues: mature threads like is are apt to entangle different questions and this is not helpful:

Issue 1: Mutual respect between different strands of the Israeli society.

Israeli society is heterogeneous at the extreme. Whether it is its strength or weakness is besides the point, what matters is that it is a fact. Jews and Palestinians, Sepharadi and Ashkenazi, religious and secular, long-timers and recent immigrants – and each category undergoes further divisions. In such circumstances it is vital, not just for some sort of abstract reason but for the sheer practicalities of the ongoing functioning of the state for all its citizens to learn to live together. This, at its best, means respecting each other’s differentness and the legitimacy of this differentness. This is precisely why an idiot like Edward Stone, inviting some citizens of Israel to shove off the state (and it is completely irrelevant whether those citizens of Israel are Messianic Jews, Beltz Hassidim, Druze, social antropologists or stamp collectors) is squirting poison from outside into situation which, even without his intervention, is not ideal.

And this, by the way, is also the reason why the unholy entanglement of state and religion in Israel is bad for the society, although an excellent economic deal and power trip for religious establishment (and not just the Rabbinate: the Waqf enjoys it just as well…). Different Israelis should have exactly the same civic freedoms to conduct their lives the way they see fit, while respecting the lives and way of life of others. Coercion doesn’t breed respect! Kashrut should be a matter for the religious (and different strands of Orthodox insist on subtly different rules – as is their right), not a matter for negotiations with secular kibbutzniks – but, for exactly the same reason, it should not be a matter for the state to control, enforce or finance the kashrut system (except within state institutions, like IDF, to enable all members of the society to use them equally – again, the respect principle.)

Issue 2: Messianic Jews and an attempt to convert the Jews to Christianity.

As a Jewish atheist, I regard an attempt to preach Christianity to Jews in an organised and persistent manner with distaste. Jews suffered Christian persecution for almost two millennia and part of it were persistent attempts at conversion. The last thing you wish to see on a Friday afternoon is two smiling, well-dressed strangers knocking on your door in Kfar Saba and attempting to convert you to the wonders of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-Day Saints. (Yes, it happened to me and no, not in Kfar Saba. And no, they didn’t succeed.)

But there are many things I regard with distaste in a democratic, free society. As long as people obey the law, refrain from violence, harassment and so on, they are free to engage in what I, as an individual, regard as distasteful.

Moreover, as Yeze will probably say (and I am in no position to assess the veracity of that statement), at least some Messianic Jews don’t wish to preach or convert, just to lead their lives in a country which they regard as (also) their own in what they regard as Jewish manner.

Issue 3: Israel as a democratic society.

This is an absolute and non-negotiable. The idea that Israel should sacrifice its democratic freedoms to attain what some will regard as desirable national goals is invariably wrong. (And often it is not just an idea: the main flaws in Israeli democratic procedures can be traced to precisely this issue.)

Occasionally (I didn’t see it on this thread, but did so on many others) somebody is bound to post something along the lines of “What about Arab countries?” “Are synagogues allowed in Saudi Arabia?” “Look at the discrimination against Kopts in Egypt!” and so on. Well, I, for one don’t want Israel to be like Saudi Arabia or Egypt. I hold it to higher standards than that not because it is a Jewish state but because it is (no matter where I happen to live) a state that I regard as mine, and because I care for its future and wellbeing. And I happen to believe that democracy is indispensable to future and wellbeing of our species.

>> do you have any knowledge of the laws of kashrut at all?

If they’re stricter than organic regulations, and raise more hackles than were when the fellow allotmenteer objected to veg at the fayre being marked so ‘cos non-approved chicken manure pellets were used, then they’re pretty strict.

>> It isn’t as easy as don’t eat pork and don’t have a cheeseburger (even if the meat is kosher).

Never said it was.

>> No-one is saying that religious Jews have a ‘magical’ understanding and such an arrogant statement is simply insulting.

Perhaps you should take that up with Edward who was saying precisely that.

>> The laws of kashrut are incredibly complex. you may not believe in it but the laws are there and if peolpe want to follow it then they need to trust the supervising authority.

And on what basis d’you suggest they award this right? An industry-standard examination to demonstrate competance? A university-level degree in Judaism? That someone of the correct flavour of Judaism is on the staff.

Isralienurse

Well I am heartened by your example of pragmatically cooperating Rabbinical councils.

I would hope that this would be the default position in Israel a country of many kinds of jew and also non Jews.

The issue of kashrut is interesting and important.

I have long known that Kashrut certificates are awarded to Arab run restaurants for example and have used this very fact to argue against a kind of anti-Zionism that sees Israel as dominated by a an extreme religious sect of ‘chosen people’ who deny basic rights to all who do not conform to their narrow view of who is a Jew.

You yourself have given a perfect example of how secular Jews had to train to comply with the kashrut certification process.

This is entirely as it should be and I am sure you all would have been furious if your certificate had later been revoked because the local Rabbinical council later discovered for instance that one of your Kibbutz was having an affair with a non Jew.

I do understand something of the tensions caused by Jews for Jesus as I was astonished to discover such a missionary group on my first visit to California in the US as a young man.

There they were walking and chanting in slightly demented looking circles but perhaps because this being San Francisco there was so much neighbouring space being occupied by equally loopy other religious sects.

I do remember discovering that I could not become one because I was a goy they must be Jews for Jesus.

Perhaps this makes them a uniquely annoying and threatening sect of Judaism and perhaps it means that they embody an ancient Christian anti-semitism and a a competitive urge for Jewish souls as the greatest prize (held to be Jesus’ own view in the gospels).

It is worth remembering that the rabbinate has historically denied the Jewish nature, of Karaites, mountain Jews, Samaritans and others the Bene Israel etc that are now all accepted as strands of Judaism (I don’t think Mandeans are but I dont know what else you would call them other than John the Baptist Christians which is an oxymoron).

Yes I accept there are the trees of the forest and they are made of wood but I am not sure that the political problems posed by an increasingly ultra orthodox halakhically focussed Israel Chief Rabbinate can be solved over a cup of coffee not when they are engaged in major battles for political control over who gets to be a Jew with the Rabbinates of the US and the UK particularly (interestingly I dont think they are locked in battle with the French Rabbinate).

But from what I read recently there are increasing obstacles thrown in the path of Jews making aliyah by the Interior Ministry (even to the point of exactly what is put on their ID card).

The fact is that a Jew for the purposes of aliyah (a secular law deliberately without a definition of who is a Jew) is most likely on arrival to be found to be non-Jewish halkhically.

This is not trivial it means for example that they cannot marry in Israel without being re converted by the rabbinate (for a man this may well involve a ritual blood letting ‘circumcision’).

or they fly to Cyprus or elsewhere to marry and then return to find a lengthy delay in the interior ministry in recognising this marriage.

What I do see is that the courts are having to become increasingly interventionist in ordering the Interior ministry to issue all kinds of permits (residence, marriage ID, passports) to Jews who are not quite Jewish enough for increasingly ultra orthodox rabbinical satisfaction.

From what I have been reading recently and please correct me if I am wrong the Israeli chief Rabbinate is not even accepting conversions conducted by the US orthodox Beth Din, as it wishes to have the final say on the appointment of the orthodox Rabbis.

This is political wood , the hard politics of who is a Jew, not the diverse forest ecosystem of many kinds of jew, that is increasingly politicised to the point that it is unsurprising that there is a secular backlash.

From a somewhat more religiously speculative point of view.

I find much of value to me socially and spiritually in Jewish traditions even, perhaps especially in some of the orthodox rituals.

But it is equally obvious to me that there are moderate and enlightened orthodoxies that are quite convivial.

There should never be any compulsion in religion (and coercive missionary activity is a compulsion that a society may take action against).

I would be highly pissed off to convert to a Judaism, one even considered orthodox in some ways, only to find myself dismissed as a second class Jew by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, and forced to go back to school.

As it stands even Judy, on making aliyah, might discover that she would have to go back to school.

This represents an increasing theo-political tendency in the Israeli Chief rabbinate, contrary to the hopes and aspirations of Israels founders.

I am not anti religious at all, ever.

I am always anti-theocratic the only antidote for which is secularism, which leaves religion a protected even exalted but non socially interfering place, separate from civil and criminal law.

Mettaculture:

“I would be highly pissed off to convert to a Judaism, one even considered orthodox in some ways, only to find myself dismissed as a second class Jew by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate,”

You would be 3rd class; secular (born Jewish) Israelis already have 2nd class.

JewliaRoberts – Nobody is perfect, least of all you with your venom

P.S. I gad to have my turn being called a shit, a fascist etc. etc. Haven’t had it for a long time. I think sympathy for Yeze is dangerous.

Felix: “Back from one of our trips, we wanted to share one pizza. I ordered a vegetarian pizza with the addtion of spicey pork sausage. I thought that I would eat the sausages, but then realised that the juice of the sausages would have seeped into the vegetables. Moses said, “Never mind, I’ll pretend not to notice.”
Pretending not to notice means he was aware of what he was eating

“He is meticulous about following orthodox practices and would NEVER eat pork. With my pizza, I placed him in front of a fait accompli;”

handing him a “fait accompli” implies that he wasn’t aware until after he had eaten it. Poor Moses!

Judy and Israelinurse, well-put.

I’m not sure why you are surprised by my reaction. My point is that I, even as a secular Israeli, think that it is important that my fellow countrymen and women who do observe religious Jewish law should feel comfortable in doing so in the world’s only Jewish state. If they can’t feel comfortable in Israel, then where can they?

Religiously observant Jews are increasingly being stereotyped and coming under attack from a highly intolerant Left, amongst others. Repeatedly we see religious Jews being branded as ‘right wing extremists’ en masse. Just as I do not enjoy being put into boxes because of who or what I am, I see no reason to remain silent when the same is done to others.

Felix:
You are a twat. A lot of people here have sympathy for Yeze but they would never serve pork to a person they know to be an orthodox Jew (and I assume Yeze wouldn’t do so either). Your stupidity is an issue totally unrelated to Yeze’s cause. There are three options:
a. you made up the story, but screwed it up with your ignorance.
b. your friend is not observant.
c. you’re a pig
Let’s take a vote (only people that have expressed sympathy for Yeze may participate).
I vote (c).

“c. you’re a pig”

living in a rural area I’ve met lots of pigs. They are generally lovely, easy going animals. I’m not saying Felix is or isn’t lovely – I don’t know him – but if you intend to use the term “pig” as an insult perhaps you should choose another animal

HazelM:

Pig -
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English pigge
Date: 13th century

3 : a dirty, gluttonous, or repulsive person

Considering that the debate revolves around pork sausages, “pig” seems appropriate (my apologies to the real ones).

pigs are highly intelligent compared to Felix

Hazel, Felix’s point seems to be that some religious Jews are flexible and will compromise. Would that intolerant secular Jews were capable of that.

MindTheCrap, I have known practising Jews who would keep kosher inside the home but not outside. Outide, they’d eat “pork & beans” – just push the pork aside and eat the beans. So, Felix’s story is credible. He seems to have intended to show solely that the religious can be flexible.

(pigs are highly intelligent compared to Felix)

I would say more having come across a few pigs in my time they are just as intelligent as dogs

Mobbing I see – Mind the crap indeed!

What a fuss about a bit of pork juice.
Are orthodox Jews not allowed to sin and be forgiven? -
I remember letters about bacon snitching Jewish boys at an English boarding school – on HP

Sigh! For the record:
Me: Oh dear! I wanted the sausages slices just for me, but I’ve just realised that some of the juice will have gone into your veges. What are we going to do?
(I showed my complete concern about the mistake)
Moses: Don’t worry, I’ll pretend not to notice.
He would never have allowed me to get another pizza. He doesn’t like throwing money about.

Whether Moses qualifies as an orthodox Jew or not is a matter of complete indifference to me. He is a person with his own mind and free to make his own decisions.

I was going to say I was sorry I ever brought up the story, but, on second thoughts I’m not, as it has provoked certain ‘elements’ on HP to show their ugly faces and who they really are. – The story is true in every detail, so what are you going to do about it, other than throwing dirty words at me? (Excluding Israelinurse as ever, as she expresses rational views).

Moderators, I see you censored two short notes of mine, but I think I have some right of reply. I will add nothing further to this undignified discussion, and leave the rats to play their repetitive games on their own

Muffin

This, at its best, means respecting each other’s differentness and the legitimacy of this differentness. This is precisely why an idiot like Edward Stone, inviting some citizens of Israel to shove off the state (and it is completely irrelevant whether those citizens of Israel are Messianic Jews, Beltz Hassidim, Druze, social antropologists or stamp collectors) is squirting poison from outside into situation which, even without his intervention, is not ideal.

Muffin, you spout “mutual respect” while calling me an “idiot”. That’s very simply “hypocrisy”.

The points you continue to ignore are
* Messianic Jews are in atcuality Christians
* unlike the many Arab (or other) Christians born to their religion in Israel, Messianc Jews have made a deliberate choice to reject Judaism
* that means the Jewish state is within its rights to consider that the messianic Jews have to a certain extent rejected citizenship
* as a parallel, the US State Department may formally revoke the citizenship of US citizens who have consciously nauralised themselves elsewhere or otherwise pledged allegiance to another state (with some exception for Israel).

Israel is not the UK or Germany or France, countries needing no protection of identity. Israel was established in part to protect and preserve Jewish identity. Part of that mission might justfiably include discouraging conversion to Christianity, the ideology which oppressed and murdered so many Jews.

Finally, if government enforcement of religious values on a major scale is often justified in Iran (and even Egypt) on the grounds the west has no right to decide the Muslim world’s internals, then the same logic should apply to Israel: By what right do the secular Christian countries of France or UK have to expect Israel to conform to European values?

At that, denial of a certificate of kashrut is on a completely different scale from beheading. Since the cert was granted in the end, I think it clear what Muffin and Yeze really want is to shove secularism down the throats of religious Jews. That’s intolerance and an abrogation of Israel’s core responsibility to Judaism and to religious Jews.

Israel is not the UK or Germany or France, countries needing no protection of identity. Israel was established in part to protect and preserve Jewish identity. Part of that mission might justfiably include discouraging conversion to Christianity, the ideology which oppressed and murdered so many Jews.

And this “mission” should be imposed upon Messianic Jews, should it?

What would you call people who advocate loudly about their mission?

And you call me a missionary!

so now pretty orthodox Moses is too tight to get another 6.50 GBP pizza??

seems to me like Felix was serving Moses a missionary Pizza

Oh come on get of your pious and frankly fantastically unbelievable high horses (are you sure they are not kosher Unicorns) the lot of you.

Felix’s story is perfectly believable and is pretty common among observent Jews travelling in goy lands and fraternising with goyim.

You all know that observency is a spectrum and further that most of us as the guest of another person have accepted things graciously that inwardly makes us uncomfortable because we realise the spirit in which the hospitality was intended and only the unblelievably pious or total prats (who could not forewarn their guests) get offended by another’s hospitality.

Buddha was not a carnivore and tradition has it that he died after eating a meal of pork rather than offend his host.

I would defy any of you to be able to prepare a meal for a devout Hindu of the Brahmin caste or even to know how to go about doing it (and it would differ on whether it was for a Telugu Brahmin (who may for example eat garlic in certain dishes) but not for a Kashmiri Brahmin.

None of you would even have the slightest idea of how to even offer food to a devout caste Hindu and would create horrible caste pollution requiring many purification rituals if you tried giving a meal to a group of mixed caste Hindu villagers from say Orrissa.

So enough already.

Interestingly my Professor of anthropology/ south Asian studies who taught me all about caste and its intricacies was an observant Jew, who was attuned enough to food rule complexity to be able to pick up on others rule based but far from clear or consistent systems.

I cannot believe any of you except perhaps Judy are actually rigidly Halakhically adherent to one given rabbinical council’s ruling in your kosher food choices, except perhaps Judy and I imagine she sticks to ‘north London’ practice, which is no doubt seen as little short of abomination by other more rigid interpretations.

But as a note for your files when in extremis remember that any Orthodox Jew can eat quite safely in any south Indian vegetarian restaurant, without violating any of their kosher proscriptions.

My professor taught me this. It is true but you can work out why if you like I’m bored now.

Leave Felix the fuck alone you censorious bullies.

Edward Stone: By stating that you are an idiot I am not calling you names, I was expressing a diagnosis. And let me make it clear: the main reason for this diagnosis is that you have no right, not a scintilla of right, to tell anybody to up the sticks and go away from their country because their presence there is not to your liking. Had you said this of Neturei Karta or Palestinians or completely secular citizens of Israel, you would have been exactly at the same fault. If you want me to engage in any civilised discussion with you, you should first withdraw this. And then we’ll talk.

Edward, could you say I have a date with Hadise? I could use your control of ju-ju words.

I’m sensing lots of anger towards Felix (is Moses now a Christian by the way?), but where is the condemnation of my local kosherie owners eating in a non-kosher Chinese restaurant? Perhaps they are now Taoists!

Some very ugly and angry people hereabouts. Religious thugs, be they muslim or jewish or hindu, are bullying bastards before they are anything else.

that means the Jewish state is within its rights to consider that the messianic Jews have to a certain extent rejected citizenship
* as a parallel, the US State Department may formally revoke the citizenship of US citizens who have consciously nauralised themselves elsewhere or otherwise pledged allegiance to another state (with some exception for Israel).

Stone’s ‘logic’ above is exactly parallel with islamic fundies who conflate apostasy with treason and citizenship rights. Would those who condemn Yeze’s agenda – Israelinurse, Amie- step up to comment on the above? Who casts orthodox jews in a poorer light, Yeze or the Stone and Judy tag team?

SO Muffin nailed it in his first post. His subsequent posts are fantastic but pearls before swine, I feel.

Metta, your last post about brahmins was a bit fantastical.I’m tamil and know what you are referring to but! As someone who absolutely will not tolerate caste, I would actually do my damnest to poison any caste conscious brahmin, let alone lose a nanosecond worrying about his precious pollution concerns.

Felix’s story is perfectly believable and is pretty common among observent Jews travelling in goy lands and fraternising with goyim.

Bollocks. You know as much about Orthodox Judaism as some of the other self-appointed experts here, viz. nothing. Note: Orthodox, not self-declared ‘observant’ (whatever that is, which is a pretty meaningless term to say the least, especially to religious Jews).

Metta, are you Jewish? If not, you are the one who should stop the fuck commenting on this (as should Felix).

Edward is quite right in stating that Messianic ‘Jews’ are Christians.

Now, if they were born in Israel, that’s one thing.

But if they immigrated to Israel under the pretence that they are Jewish, under the Law of Return, then they did so illegally.

Now, if they were born in Israel, that’s one thing.

But if they immigrated to Israel under the pretence that they are Jewish, under the Law of Return, then they did so illegally.

Not exactly:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1208870469395&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

G. Bennet

I used the word advisedly, as that is a common self ascription. Judy uses it to describe herself for instance.

No I am not Jewish but if you are telling me that this is a Jew only thread then your astounding bigotry is matched only by your ignorance.

Why can Judy call herself an observant Jew and I not be allowed to call her an observant Jew?

Because according to you she is Jewish you nasty little ethno-religious chauvinist and bigot.

I must make it plain here that I am not criticising Judy or doubting for a second the validity of her self ascription, on the contrary I find her observations and comments as an observant Jew most informative.

You are clearly seriously misinformed about Messianic Judaism and the spectrum of believe it represents.

>>first Messianic Jews are not Jews for Jesus. Jews for Jesus are properly speaking Evangelical Christians who target Jews for conversion.

>>Messianic Jews of whom there are no more than 6,000-15,000 have a diversity of belief but all see themselves as observent Jews bound by the Torah and the covenant of the God of Jacob with the nation of Israel.

>>They do not believe in supercessionism or replacement theology, therefore they are Christian heretics to the extent hat they believe that the covenant of God remains with the chosen people of Israel and not with the Church, they see themselves as Israelites.

>>YHW/Adonai/God is the God of jacob the God of the Israelites.

>>Jesus. Yeshuah is believed to be the Messiah but he is not divine for all Messianic Jews, nor do all believe in the trinity but have a strict monotheism.

>> Mosaic Law all massianic Jews see themselves as Jews and shabat is the jewish Shabat as are all its holy days.

>>Torah all Messianic Jews believe that it is obligatory upon them they see Jesus/yeshuah as not presenting a second or replacement Law but only a fullfilling of its original

>>Halakha all Messianic Jews observe this, the extent to which they see the Talmud and Rabbinical Judaism as a guide ‘the oral law’ to the understanding of the written Torah differs between congregations.

The extent to which messianic Jews consider mosaic law to be binding on Gentile Christians varies but again is never negligible.

This along with their other ‘judaizing’ tendencies makes them christian heretics and indeed in the past similar sects were always persecuted as apostate Judaizers or Jews

However Karaite jews are Torah only Jews who reject Rabbinical Judaism and the Israeli chief Rabbinate now accepts them as Jews.

From an anthropology of religion perspective I would class the messianic Jews as a syncretic sect between Judaism and Christianity but in their inistence on seeing themselves as Jews and in determining Judaism in a rather conventional halakhic way, in their social and political identification with Israel and in their high degree of observance of orthodox Jewish ritual, well they are Jews.

Now of course the appearance of yeshua in their theology, even in a non orthodox Christian way, makes them heretics or apostates for orthodox Jewry, although as they apostasise nothing of Judaism they merely add yeshua they would have to be seen as a sect or heresy of Judaism.

In fact they are extremely similar to several early Jewish Christian sects that new only the Torah and the ‘Hebrew gospels’ of the life and sayings of Jesus.

In an analogue of those times I would describe modern Messianic Jews theologically as ranging from neo-Ebonite through neo-Nazarene to neo_Sauline.

I say Saul rather than Paul because it is with Pauline Christianity that Messianic Jews differ most and are most radically heretical as Christians.

They use his Hebrew name of Saul because they see him as remaining an observant Jew a Pharisee until the end and only believed Mosaic law should not apply to the new gentile Christians.

But if G. Bennet you understand anything of what I have written I would be surprised.

And for what it is worth I would say that the shift in orthodox Jewish opposition to Christian missionising has moved away from the large and powerful American Evangelicals to the small and vulnerable double heretic minority of Messianic Jews, is simply right wing political cunning.

Evangelical Christian Zionists are helpful to a right wing Israeli agenda, Messianic Jews in their insistence on remaining Jews halakhically while believing in Jesus means they can be treated with the irrational hatred and severe persecution once reserved for the Nazarenes.

Mirax

Stone’s ‘logic’ above is exactly parallel with islamic fundies who conflate apostasy with treason and citizenship rights.

Mirax’s “logic” above is exactly parallel with twisted leftists who omit all proportion and compare the faults of the US or UK to the USSR, or Israel to Nazis, or Bush to Hitler. Denying a kashrut cert to a convert who refused supervision, is hardly the equivalent of beheading apostates.

What about non-interference of state with religion? If the rabbinate were allowed to deny Pnina’s cert and the rabbinate continues to make too “arbitrary” decisions (as MTC accuses), then the free market will reduce the rabbinate’s power; that is, restaurant customers will begin ignoring the rabbinate’s decisions. Certain of both US and European centre-right have a point in decrying government interference in the market.

What would we say if the UK courts intervened in a halal decision, or the US courts in the decisions of the Episcopalians concerning ordination of women? The secular here would scream bloody murder. So, why are they not here decrying the secular Israeli courts’ intervention in what is wholly a Jewish religious question?

The anti-religious here seem to be adopting the matzpen-Arab line of insisting on de-Judaizing Israel.

Bennet

I have personally seen traditional (not ultra-) orthodox make the compromise Felix describes, dozens of times. They apply strict kashrut within their homes. Outside, they compromise with the world, eating from taref plates and just pushing the taref aside. (Religious inconsistency is their human right.)

G. Bennet

”Now, if they were born in Israel, that’s one thing.
But if they immigrated to Israel under the pretence that they are Jewish, under the Law of Return, then they did so illegally.”

Why don’t you try googling before opining you ignoramus

‘Israeli Citizenship

The state of Israel grants Aliyah (right of return) and citizenship to Jews, and to those with Jewish parents or grandparents who are not considered Jews according to halacha, e.g. people who have a Jewish father but a non-Jewish mother.

Specifically excluded were any “person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.” An Israeli Supreme Court decision in 1989 ruled that Messianic Judaism constituted another religion.[85]

The Israeli government therefore rejected as a matter of course applications from Messianic Jews under the Law of Return.

On April 16, 2008, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled in a case brought by a number of Messianic Jews with Jewish fathers and grandfathers.

Their applications for Aliyah had been rejected on the grounds that they were Messianic Jews.

The argument was made by the applicants that they had never been Jews according to halacha, and were not therefore excluded by the conversion clause.

This argument was upheld in the ruling.[77][86][87]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism#Israeli_Citizenship

Religious inconsistency is their human right

The careless use of the term “human rights” by Judy and Edward reads like a parody. According to them, those acting in the name of Orthodox Judaism must have the human rights to tell other people what to do, whereas “apostates” have no human rights, apart from the right not to be killed (but after all, wouldn’t they have it coming to them if they were?).

mirax

Well yes but as you say you are Tamil, you recognise what I am saying (but hate it) and it was only a bit fantastical.

You would not have had to suffer (like I did) the endless droning of Telugu Brahmins telling me how hard done by they were by affirmative action and that as the purest of the pure they could eat Garlic as it was impossible to ‘fire their blood’ though as a precaution (strictly unnecessary) it should ideally not be served with red things.

Of course this made me want to feed them the leavings of a menstruating Dalit but I didn’t because I am generally polite about such things.

I did say though ‘don’t you think after 4,000 years of arbitrary privilige it is time to give others a chance’.

I am sure that if I had actually spat in their (very very garlicky ) dahl I could not have engineered a more pleasing visual response.

Since the matter has been raised, it woud be interesting to compare Israeli law with law on the Indian sub-continent, with religious law established formally by such legislation as the Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act, Hindu Marriage Act, etc.

Specifically, how would Indian law affect “Hindu Muslims”? “Christian Jews”?

Yeze

According to them, those acting in the name of Orthodox Judaism must have the human rights to tell other people what to do

No, but they DO have a right to decide upon the rules of their own religion. YOU have no automatic right to dictate to them the terms of their own religion, nor do you have an automatc right to be accepted into their religion.

Do Sikhs demand rights in Roman Catholicism? I think not.

AlecM: I am not certain what you mean by “glomming off” this country. I have never heard this term before and looking it up, one use of it as latching onto, doesn’t make sense- the other is so offensive I don’t even want to repeat such a scurrilous slur on Judy. I am really surprised, disappointed, and saddened, to see you using it, if that is the sense. It ill becomes you, and comes as a shock to my great appreciation of who you are as a person. Nothing Judy has said can possibly justify it.

Amie, just as a matter of curiosity. “Glomming” is also new to me, so (being a sucker for neologisms) I looked it up. Yes, latching into, clasping, but also stealing, thieving, taking without permission. None are in the category of “so offensive I don’t even want to repeat such a scurrilous slur”. So, can I, with the most seductive smile I can muster, entice you please to quench my curiosity and give just a shadow of hint what is that offensive meaning? Please!

No, but they DO have a right to decide upon the rules of their own religion. YOU have no automatic right to dictate to them the terms of their own religion, nor do you have an automatc right to be accepted into their religion.

Do Sikhs demand rights in Roman Catholicism? I think not.

I’m not telling Judaism what it is and isn’t. I’m talking about how Judaism should treat other individuals in a secular democracy.

So you think Messianic Jews are alien to Israel. So what? Doesn’t Judaism say treat the alien in your land kindly?

S O Muffin: It is the latter. Labelling Judy as thieving from this country, has such overtones of anti semitism, especially coupled with when are you leaving for Israel to me is scurrilous. Did you not pick up the resonance of the trope of parasitism, from glomming off? I often see things differently from Judy, but suddenly the whole “you don’t belong here, get out” thing drew me back into a beleaguered ghetto enclave along with her. I know from outstanding work he does that AlecM is the last person to be conciously antisemtic, so I am very confused about this remark.

I’m rather miffed at Judy’s “all you Christians can leave Israel” stance. It’s like she thinks discrimination’s okay against people she doesn’t like, just not against her.

There is one thing that has to be said.

Christian Europe persecuted Jews for nearly 2,000 years. It murdered them for 2,000 years. It conducted pogroms, inquisitions, disputations, auto-da-fes, and – finally – genocide against the Jews. After WW2, a number of churches finally decided to absolve Jewry of deicide – but had not the humility or remorse to even acknowledge, much less apologise, for a two-millennia-long Christian orgy of persecution and violence against Judaism.

One would think, under those circumstances, Christianity would have the decency or humility to keep a low profile in the Jewish state itself – but it does not. One wonders why it is so essential to propagate Christianity in tiny Israel, with one billion Indians and one billion Chinese to convert.

Metta, you were too kind to the brahmin bloodsuckers. You should know what the atheistic, anti-hindu Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam movement( of which my dad was a card carrying member) did to Tamil brahmins, so the telegus should be grateful. I am the sort of woman who deliberately feeds her hindu mum beef, and as a teenager actually waved a soiled sanitary napkin around the family prayer room, so melodramatic taboo slaying gestures are irresistible to me.

India preserved minority rights at Independence by keeping personal civil laws for Muslims, sikhs and christians (which some consider a mistake in retrospect) but arbitrarily abolished hindu personal law (a very good move imo). Apart from muslims, the rest generally get by pretty well with secular civil law. The Indian constitution was written by the brilliant Dr Ambedkar, a dalit and I’d be very surprised if it contained anything like the kind of nasty religious discrimination Stone so fervently favours for Israel.

Just to be fair to the brahmins, the brahmins arent the only or even the worst offenders when it comes to caste discrimination and violence against the dalits – even the middling castes and officially backward castes (OBCs) practise untouchability against the dalits in places like tamil nadu.

Amie is very selective in her outrage on judy’s behalf.

>>One would think, under those circumstances, Christianity would have the decency or humility to keep a low profile in the Jewish state itself – but it does not. One wonders why it is so essential to propagate Christianity in tiny Israel, with one billion Indians and one billion Chinese to convert.>>

I personally detest christian evangelism and muslim theocracy and would love to see these two religions disappear first before all the others. But if you value freedom of conscience and the right to practise your religion for your group, you must allow it for everyone else. Some hindu extremists hate christians and muslims too, and with exactly your brand of selfpitying rationalising over historical wrongs, have gone on to murder muslims and christian converts in India. They are absolutely wrong.

Mirax

your brand of selfpitying rationalising over historical wrongs

I’m not Jewish. What does it say about you that you assumed me so?

have gone on to murder muslims and christian converts in India

So now Jews in Israel are responsible for Hindu crimes in India?

To my knowledge, Jews have never placed Christians in ovens, nor have any plans to do so.

Once again we have a poster here equating a kashrut cert with mass murder. I wonder what we call a double-standard imputing to Jews the crimes of others?

The Indian constitution was written by the brilliant Dr Ambedkar, a dalit and I’d be very surprised if it contained anything like the kind of nasty religious discrimination Stone so fervently favours for Israel.

So, finally we get to the core – ths poster revels in ignorance, seeing India as morally superior to Israel.

Except that Israel also has a set of basic laws functioning as a constitution.

With Israeli law being substantially similar to Indian law – both based on English common law as introduced by colonial administration, both delegating much of personal status to individual communities.

Except that Israel hasn’t mudered Muslims en masse as did India at Partition, or more recently in the Gujarat riots.

The double standards here, and pure hypocrisy, are incredible.

By the way, it is also incredible that Mirax just referred to the Jewish experience of the Holocaust as “self-pitying” memory of “historical wrongs”. That’s quite a cavalier dismissal of Christian Europe’s murder of an entire people.

Now that the issue has been raised, a comparison of Israel with India is instructive. The US Commission on International Religious Freedom has cited India for failure to protect religious minorities. Many states – Chhattisgarth, Madhya Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Gujarat and Arunachal Pradesh, among others – have laws to prevent or restrict conversions, and have been criticised for this by the US State Department. Outrightly restricting conversion is far more serious than Israel’s simple issue of a kashrut certificate.

I look forward to the HP article on “India’s Religious Fascists”.

Amie: Thank you for your clarification. I agree, Judy is not a thief. She is a hypocrite and a racist (or at least many of her comments are), applying different standards to Jews and non-Jews, wishing to discriminate against non-Jewish Israeli citizens, supporting colonial settlements in Occupied Territories. But I agree, she is not a thief.

Edward Stone

You are quite wrong.

The foundation of Isreali Law (apart of course from statutes laid down by parliament the Knesset) is Ottoman very very Ottoman.

In fact it represents a continutaion of the millet system a polity of communalised or pillarised religious communities seen as quasi ethnicities each to be governed by their own laws, councils and leaders.

Now of course this kind of multiculturalism as diversity governed through unequal laws and their application through manipulatedly enfranchised communal entities was very much liked by the British Empire indeed it is a consitutionalisation of divide and rule.

The British introduced the all India Muslim Personal Law Act in the 1930’s as a sop to the activist Muslim League.

It contributed quite a bit to partition, to the idea that there could not be one country for Muslims and Hindus.

Because of this at independence it was left alone for fear of further disharmony.

It has meant that there is not and probably never can be a unified civil Law in India, a pretty disastrous outcome.

If you want to see the harm this has caused and the impact it has had on all Indians including Hindus then google ‘Shah Bano’