Harry's Place

Agreed, but how do me make tolerance seem important to people who blame the blowing of the wind (and tsunamis) on Jews?

Oh yeah, capitalism has been great – famines, two world wars, nuclear weapons, economic depression, global poverty, climate change, imperialism, colonialism…where do i sign up?

arsehole.

Oh yeah, capitalism has been great – famines, two world wars, nuclear weapons, economic depression, global poverty, climate change, imperialism, colonialism…where do i sign up?

arsehole.

You should look up the environmental problems in the Soviet Union (and probably China too). At least we have democracy and consumer choice with which which to fight for the environment.

As for imperialism, wasn’t the Soviet Union imperialist? Isn’t China? But when you call us “imperialist” you have to bend the meaning of that word to the point of absurdity.

“colonialism” not lately!

“nuclear weapons” – invented to fight the Nazis.

“famines” – give us another five year plan!

“global poverty” – and yet “globalization” is the most successful (and rapid) program for raising the standard of living in third world countries. Capitalism!

“economic depression” – yes the economy is an experiment, and we’re always tinkering with the machine, but tell me, what did the Soviet Union collapse for?

“Two World Wars” – do democratic countries go to war against each other? They don’t! I think Neil has the solution for that problem right here.

Oh yeah, capitalism has been great – famines, two world wars, nuclear weapons, economic depression, global poverty, climate change, imperialism, colonialism…where do i sign up?

At any UK Borders Agency office. Oddly, the Muslim world doesn’t have much of an immigration problem, dealing with the floods of westerners wanting to experience the Islamic paradise. I wonder why the people who are in the paradise are so keen to come here? And I wonder why the left, who are keen to dismiss the benefits of western freedom, are also keen to grant asylum so widely?

Similarly, quite a lot of people were shot fleeing communism. The reverse? Not so much.

7/7 & numerous convictions for terrorism. Over 250 since 2001.

Its a good job we have extended the hand of friendship or the UK might look like Beirut.

Hear, hear, Neil D.

The Communist World was a set of countries which embraced Communism. The Islamic World are a group of countries that embrace Islam + all the followers of Islam in various countries acrosss the World. There isn’t a single target to convert.

The problems with Islam don’t take place inside Saudi or Pakistan. They can please themselves. The problem manifests itself when the West and Islam meet on the West’s soil.

If Islamists kept temselves to Islamic countries it wouldn’t be a problem. Its only the attacks against the West from Islamic Terror on Western soil that has created the problem for us.

If Islamists kept temselves to Islamic countries it wouldn’t be a problem

Well, Islamism is a considerable problem (to say the least) for most Muslims (and especially non-Muslims) inside the Muslim-majority countries too. Especially for those unfortunate enough to reside under regimes that actively identify themselves with Islamism.

The only people (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) who want to live under an Islamist state are Islamists. The rest are to be forced to comply – with lethal force too often than not.

“Two World Wars” – do democratic countries go to war against each other? They don’t! I think Neil has the solution for that problem right here.

Georgia and Russia are democracies…

But I agree with the thrust of the post, it is better to fight by example than by force on political questions. True political power does not come from the barrel of a gun.

Of course there is a big difference between Communism and Islamism, in that Communism was new philosophy imposed forcibly on the masses who otherwise would have no allegence to it. Islam is deeply rooted in lots of communities and, whilst the distance from Islam to Islamism may be far enough to prevent most from becoming jihadis, it may not be enough for many Muslims to fight publicly (or privately) against extremism.

the principles that still make them attractive

Yes, the UK does have a better system than the vast majority of the countries of the world. But, it’s also a decaying system: decreasing popular participation in politics; the decay of the parliamentary adversarial system; the trivialisation of politics as the Euro Commission’s acquis communitaire ringfences legislation; positive codes of ‘rights’ that make freedom a lottery as opposed to a privilege…and worst of all, after economic redistribution, radical egalitarianism and ’social’ justice, three of the worst shibboleths imported from Marxism-Leninism, we have an increasingly kratocratic society where guile and cunning have elevated a clutch of moral degenerates into the seats of power.

Georgia and Russia are democracies…

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

You are joking right?

Baltic states excluded, Ukraine is the nearest thing in the ex-USSR to a democracy; but it’s not really one in the western sense; but rather conflicting regional business/oligarch interest groups, with their own companies and front “political parties”: yes there are some ideological differences of emphasis between say Yushchenko and Yanukovych (while to pretend that Yuliya “Vladimirovich, I don’t need to wear a tie!” Tymoshenko has any principles beyond her own self-aggrandisement…would be either extremely naive or incredibly optimistic).

But Georgia. Erm, no. And Russia. Well, no.

Might be right, but there is a huge difference though.
Communism was just another political form of dictatorship, very few really believed in it as a religion. There was no God to praise or worship. No sacred book as the Koran or the Bible. It had not deep roots in society (as Greg said) and was not defended by fanatics. That’s exactly why deterrence worked and we’re not destroyed by nuclear Armagedon.
You can’t say the same about islamic fanaticism. You can’t argue with people that praise death and hope for it.
Even if the majority in islamic countries would like to have normal and peaceful lives, still the extremists would prevail. After all, they have God by their side.

You can’t argue with people that praise death and hope for it.

Yes I think that’s it. Communism, for all its faults was, initially at least, rationale (or an attempt at the rationale). Islamism’s whole premise is irrationale. Harder to argue with folks who have irrationale – and nihilistic – beliefs. Probably why religions do better in the long run than political systems. It’s a grim thought, isn’t it? Socialism, capitalism, democracy, etc. will all probably be outlived by religion.

….ensuring that our societies do not abandon the principles that still make them attractive should be seen as part of the effort to win the war against extremist Islamist ideas.

Which ‘societies’ and attractive to whom I wonder?

The majority of the population over 35 and living outside of the M25, appears to be deeply concerned that the principles and values with which they grew up are no longer valid. To express concern that the concentrations of disparate immigrant groups and the deep changes that as a consequence become super-imposed on the host community is wrong and problematical. This phenomenon is being effectively ignored by main-stream political parties and automatically branded as racist and irrational.

Many of the principles that once generated a sense pride of self and an attachment of identity in the individual as a member of a long established Nation, have already been degraded. As a result, what used to be referred to as the ‘brain drain’ is now the most valuable ‘trade’ commodity being exported. The family silver of the Nation is being traded for the political expediency of career politicians, too obsessed with their own egos and desire to turn demographic manipulation in to some sort of art form.

As a Nation I believe that we have become increasingly frustrated and fragmented by the inequality of opportunity to participate in the course of own destiny. There has been an ideological war declared upon the West, yet the source of this ideology is cynically denied and neatly obscured by the by the custodians of the very same values it seeks to destroy.

Would we I wonder be so accommodating to the presence of the followers of Islam en-bloc, if we were not so dependent on the oil reserves upon which the foundation of this cult sits?

The Communist World was a set of countries which embraced Communism.

Greg hits the nail on the head. The Communist World was a set of countries where the Communist Party (in virtually all cases) had overthrown the previous government. The people didn’t embrace communism; in nearly all cases, they got rid of it.

Would we I wonder be so accommodating to the presence of the followers of Islam en-bloc, if we were not so dependent on the oil reserves upon which the foundation of this cult sits?

I think that’s an argument for why the West is so accommodating to Wahhabis and their ilk. The great majority of Muslims have no oil reserves. There are a number of Muslims I know who would be glad of a little less tolerance being shown by the West to the Saudi variety of Islam and some consideration of the way it’s been practised in Europe for the last 400-odd years.

Georgia and Russia are democracies…

You should be a stand-up comedian.

Hasan, much of the problem isn’t Saudi but Pakistani.

Hasan, much of the problem isn’t Saudi but Pakistani.

Quite a lot of the problems in Pakistan are actually due to Saudi. Saudi Arabia, so I’ve read, funds a lot of the madrassas and actively pushes its form of Islam in Pakistan.

Gordon Bennet
Hasan, much of the problem isn’t Saudi but Pakistani.

Gordon Bennet!

Perhaps letting Turkey join the EU some day would help.

Greg:

I guess your reading hasn’t included Tarek Fatah, who traces a lot of Pakistan’s problems to the Cold War and the subsequent promotion of “conservative” Islam as a bulwark against Soviet influence.

In a nutshell, the CIA made its contribution by supplying some pretty toxic text books for distribution in Pakistani schools (and probably aiding and abetting Zia Al Huq’s military coup). And, as luck would have it, at just about the same time, Pakistan had its own resident Islamist philosopher, Mawdoodi, who is considered by some to have influenced Al Banna and Qutb.