Harry's Place

It makes Labour look silly and irresponsible.

So what’s new?

But he isn’t being silly. Irresponsible, perhaps. But in many parts of the country, dealing with extremists and giving them funds, is simply part of the costs of doing business in those communities.

This is why any truly effective action against extremists and their organisations is effectively ruled out. It is the extremists who have the most traction within those communities. So we have to play charades instead.

It works, until the public find out. Then ministers have to pretend they didn’t know. Plausible deniability.

Silly and irresponsible be b*gg*r*d; the plain and obvious fact is that McBroon, Balls, Harperson et al will do everthing they can to avoid losing a single vote cast by the ethno-cultural group which holds the key to winning or losing ten, fifteen or twenty* constituencies.

That’s all there is to it.

If the Satanist vote were crucial, we’d see McBroon photographed naked in a pentangle spattered with rooster blood.

* Any figure can be closen according to the reader’s optimism, pessimism or paranoia.

While I waqs briefly in the Labour party tehre was a kerfuffle regarding a member who had been dropped, after many years as a school governor. Now, in t’pub she telt us that she was once a member of the IS, teh for-runner of the SWP. Now, does that mean schools in Camden were ‘linked’ to left-wing extremists?

How about this, Enoch Powell was heavilly involved in British rascism, he was a member of the Tory party, Tories on local school governor boards are linked with racism and fascist extremism.

Ta da!

Of course – I could add, Barack Obama was on a school charity board with….

Ed Balls Is Not Fit To Be Secretary of State for Schools – for the reasons given in this post and for many other bloomin reasons as well.

agree with monty

Will you wankers stop trying to draw an equivalence between the BNP and Hizb and ISF, these are Islamist groups who are part of an international Islamist grouping to create a global caliphate whose methodology is violence.

The BNP is a British Nationalist party that operates in the democratic political process which repudiates all violence as part of its methodology to take power.

You are either a bunch of dumb fucks or simply opportunistic maggots talking a load of old bollocks.

I personally think its a mixture of both – dumb and cynical maggots.

Oh, look, Deathy speaking morally-relativistic twaddle.

Lee two days ago -

Heres my challenge – the next thread I comment on I will answer on a level of debate – and lets see what idiot on this site abuses me, attacks me using a perjorative or Ad Hominem attack.

Lee today -

wankers… dumb fucks… maggots

Oh dear, Lee.

“It is the extremists who have the most traction within those communities. So we have to play charades instead. ”

Yes – that must be the assumption behind the governments’ playing along with, and effectively apologising for, these people. However ultimately its about securing votes in elections. So what are we saying – that the extremists have traction with ordinary Muslim voters (but isn’t the usual argument that they don’t and most Muslims are anti extremist?) or that the Government is mistaken in thinking they have (electoral) traction and need not play along etc with them, in which case why is it?

Just asking.

Actually Mark I said I would not abuse the people who post comments as long as they did not abuse me – i never said I would not abuse the opportunist idiots who post up the dumb as shit articles.

“Forget the fact that in all Ofsted’s inspections, no evidence has been found that extremist or anti-semitic views are being taught.”

Well no, you wouldn’t find such evidence in their lunchboxes, would you:

“One Ofsted inspector I interviewed complained she spent more time looking in children’s lunchboxes than checking if they could read or write. When she asked her lead inspector if they shouldn’t be investigating whether the school was using synthetic phonics to good effect, he said, “We haven’t got time for that.”

Most of the Ofsted reports appear to be based on self evaluation, so the inspection Balls waves triumphantly is not worth the paper it is written n.

“Each school has to demonstrate it “has planned and taken an appropriate set of actions, based upon its analysis of its context, to promote community cohesion within the school and beyond the school community”. What does this mean? And why is a body guilty of such gobbledegook in charge of our children’s education? ”

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article6936090.ece

Actually Mark I said I would not abuse the people who post comments as long as they did not abuse me – i never said I would not abuse the opportunist idiots who post up the dumb as shit articles.

Okay. Your ad hominem abuse is strictly limited to above-the-line commenters.

Thanks Lee!

Mark2:

“So what are we saying – that the extremists have traction with ordinary Muslim voters (but isn’t the usual argument that they don’t and most Muslims are anti extremist?) or that the Government is mistaken in thinking they have (electoral) traction and need not play along etc with them, in which case why is it?”

This government is not mistaken. They know how to harvest the islamic vote, and people like Jack Straw have been very effective at doing so. There are quite a lot of Labour seats now very dependant on those votes. With an election in the offing, moderate muslims are being culled from the government “charmed circle”, and being replaced by extremists. John Denham seems to be leading the charge in this direction.

They know exactly what they are dealing with. But they don’t want the rest of us to know, because it blows a hole through the middle of their theory of modern western islam and we might be able to see through it.

Alec M,

where’s the moral relativism in objecting to tarry brush arguments?

Lee J B – you say you repudiate violence in order to gain power. How about after you gain power? Previously you said the BNP would take revenge on jews then. Are the dumb fuck maggots supposed to ignore that? Along with the other utterances of that component of your various personalities?

The BNP is a British Nationalist party that operates in the democratic political process which repudiates all violence as part of its methodology to take power.

After taking power however:

- Lee John Barnes, 28 September 2009, commenting on Pickled Politics, addressing English Jewish commenter Katy Newton:

Well Katy, you are a dumb cunt. Evil bitches like you are the sort of sicko who have polluted our country and culture from within. You, and those like you, are the real inner enemy – not the Islamist apologists for Mohammed….., but you – you sell your own out and therefore you deserve nothing but contempt, and hopefully along with the rest of all your kind in the near future – a quick trial , a short rope and a long drop.

As so often at HP, Lucy Lips presents an argument that is short on calm, dispassionate analysis, but heavy on moral grandstanding and condemnation. The analogy with the BNP, so regularly trotted out at HP, has superficial impact – but is shallow.

Moreover, the UK operates under the rule of law – not rule by politicians or trial by media. It should not – must not – proscribe organisations, or withdraw funding, on the basis of the Commons Punch and Judy show, a Newsnight report, or the Conservative Party playing politics in the run up to an election.

The salient facts these:

HuT and its front groups are legal organisations.
The two schools have passed OFSTED inspections.

As far as I know the feasibility of HuT being banned has been examined, and it was deemed not possible under current legislation.

OFSTED inspections are important; and it would be bad practice, and set a poor precedent, for the government to cut off funding, or change the management, despite good OFSTED reports.

Those who bang the table for politicians to pull a lever to make things right sometimes forget that is actually rather an unhealthy way for a country to be run. It should not be the way the UK is run.

and is refusing to do anything about the evidence of the connections between Hizb and ISF.

This clause barely makes any sense. One wonders what Lucy Lips expects the government to do “about the evidence of the connections between Hizb and ISF.”

The government, as so oft governments are (as opposed to blogs), are faced with a dilemma. Two schools with good OFSTED reports run by an organisation with links to a controversial, but legal organisation. Legally and procedurally that is difficult in the context of schools policy and statutes: its not really a situation for those with pitchforks.

I posted this yesterday on what is now a dormant thread. Like Thomas Croft 1.27 p.m. I feel something is being over looked in this condemnation. To quote from what I posted previously:

“The level of proof required by Ministers of the Crown in regard to alleged extremists operating schools are of a different order to say that of posters to this site.

Actions which are not legally secure will end in scenes of Islamic (or indeed other fundamentalists of any religious persuasion) crowding round outside the High Court having won the case against the government under human rights legislation enacted, and the irony is never lost on them, to produce the kind of tolerant open society clearly at odds with the spirit of their kind of ‘faith’. Were I a Minister I would be thinking twice.
…

I think that the influence of Hizb ut-Tahrir to be pernicious, their justification duplicitous. It seems to me in the examples I have read and listened to evidence about they seek to divide and set out to erect hostility based upon entirely on faith. Further, their approach objectifies and denigrates those who are without the ‘faith’. On that level [their patronage] is undesirable at best. But if one does not have powers to intervene then how to counter it? If funding is available to some schools and not others then on what grounds are funds withheld? Are these grounds legal ones, if so then they can they be appealed and so on. I think I see more crowds of grinning faces outside the High Court.
…
Also it might be easily pointed out that considered purely as schools faith schools excel in academic measures also; I do not know if that is true but it might be so. If it is not, then why aren’t schools with equally challenged records in academic achievement treated equally? The academic challenge to a school run on extremist lines might be as unrewarding as any other. Are there in fact any other challenges in Law a concerned government might make? I fail to see how such legislation as would remove Hizb ut-Tahrir from managing schools would survive any test of human rights as I understand them. A depressing thought indeed, and one I am certain has occurred to Hizb ut-Tahrir without of course producing a similar reaction.

…”

I admire Lucy Lips and habibi among others who patiently track the activities of such groups as Hizb ut-Tihrir and the B.N.P. Without them I would be seriously less well informed. But when the facts glide into criticism of this character I am less certain they are on sure ground. I would be relieved beyond measure if action to remove this odious little grouping’s clutch on children’s minds. But I am not the one who will have to face the public if a legal challenge results in a victory for Hizb ut-Tahrir and their followers, gleefully expressed in front of the world’s media on the pavement outside the High Court.

Lee J B – you say you repudiate violence in order to gain power. How about after you gain power? Previously you said the BNP would take revenge on jews then.

###

I never said that at all. That was a typical Daily Express lie made up by their idiot political editor.

So Harrys Place now takes everything prinited by the Daily Express as gospel does it ?

—————————————————————-
- Lee John Barnes, 28 September 2009, commenting on Pickled Politics, addressing English Jewish commenter Katy Newton:

Well Katy, you are a dumb cunt. Evil bitches like you are the sort of sicko who have polluted our country and culture from within. You, and those like you, are the real inner enemy – not the Islamist apologists for Mohammed….., but you – you sell your own out and therefore you deserve nothing but contempt, and hopefully along with the rest of all your kind in the near future – a quick trial , a short rope and a long drop.

####

Those that subvert our national interests for the benefit of a religion, ideology or foreign nation are traitors, and hence deserve a traitors fate.

Those that think we must tolerate such treason, are deluded.

I don’t think it is beyond the wit of a regulator to determine whether persons connected with a body in receipt of public funds are “fit and proper”.

Other regulatory bodies have such powers, and they use them to keep dodgy and dubious characters away from sensitive institutions, where they might cause mischief.

What is needed most of all, however, is guidance and expertise which will allow OFSTED to identify when extreme and antidemocratic groups are trying to take over an institution. Hizb present themselves as “the only true Muslims”, and too often that is not challenged.

Indeed, the OFSTED inspector who gave the Hizb school a clean bill of health had appeared at a conference alongside one of the Hizb activists involved in the school. Perhaps she doesn’t think that there is anything intrinsically wrong about Hizb running a school.

There is.

Those that subvert our national interests for the benefit of a religion, ideology or foreign nation are traitors, and hence deserve a traitors fate.

OK. We are getting somewhere with you. Does this then apply to all Jews or just the ones you think are “subverting our national interests?”

I’m trying of course to work out whether you are in the tradition of the cultural anti-semitism of Mosley or the rabid racial fascism of Leese.

Lee

Well we’ve gotta do something, to try and stop the rot
And the traitors that abuse us, they should all be shot

On the school thing. As I said before I don’t think it actually is ofsted that inspects these schools – it is the retired ofsted inspectors of the bridge schools inspectorate who do so. However if ther eis a legitimate complaint here:

If you wish to write to the lead inspector
confidentially, or you have any other enquiries
about inspection, contact the Ofsted helpline
020 7421 6662 or http://www.ofsted.gov.uk.

Stop playing dumb, Deathy.

Bloody marvellous to have you back, Benji.

Alec M,

where dumb, I was commenting, by illustration, just how dodgey guilt by association type politics can be. Or don’t you think trotskyism is a reprehensible political practice?

Yes, Deathy, ‘cos Hizb is just another political party with it’s kooks and far-out corners. Not like the BNP at all.

“I don’t think it is beyond the wit of a regulator to determine whether persons connected with a body in receipt of public funds are “fit and proper”.” Lucy Lips 2.14 p.m.

Hello, and congratulations Lucy on this story.

I am not in any way qualified but I have an uneasy feeling a Q.C. could drive a coach and horses through “fit and proper”. My overwhelming requirement (wishing does not come into it) is for Hizb ut-Tahrir to be banned. I would therefore expect it to follow that their grip on education would cease. However, it is no easy thing, particularly with an election looming, to persuade Parliament of the need for this. Mr Gove’s somewhat regulation congratulatory remarks about Moslem schools in general gives the lie to those who come here to allege government connivance in Islamic education methods for local electoral gain.

Those of us who find extremist involvement in education unbearable have a problem on our hands.

Lee John Barnes @2:06 pm – do you perhaps see how people might experience a certain lack of internal consistency in comments such as this? Almost as if you had swallowed some infernal potion in mid comment and reappeared from under the table in a state of demonic possession to complete it?

Posts like this appear to make you angry because you read it as an attack on muslims as foreigners whereas in fact it is a critique of a minority muslim ideology that is politically unacceptable to the poster. You need to understand that distaste at some aspects of islamism will NEVER translate into racism for the broad mass of people in this country.

Ed Balls is playing this affair all wrong. Condemn the Tories’ sensationalism if you want, take the piss out of Gove for confusing Pathfinder with PVE.

But don’t pretend that there is no problem.

I said more or less the same here. For people like Balls, the hated Tories, and keeping them out of government is the only problem. Balls is far too blinded by his class war agenda to see that we have a far more dangerous and insidious enemy in our midst.

Quote: “SIOE and the other Muslim-hating groups.”
Where were/are the parents of the children who were/are pupils at this school?

Quote: “Parents and children being told that ‘fanatics’ are teaching their children ”

Did they need Cameron to tell them about any Hizb-ut-Tahrir connection, if there was one?

If there is/was a connection and parents did not know, why was that? If they did know, are/were they concerned?

Alec,

I didn’t say it wasn’t like the BNP. I’m still waitign for you to show where I’ve engaged in moral relativism.

Deathy, you drew a link with Tory-supporting Enoch Powell not being thought to cast doubt on Tory school governors. That’s ‘cos the Tory party is not a religio-political and fascist party.

Good headline.

And good to see that the Blairite-Brownite feud lives on, with you Blairites now openly endorsing Cameron.

Any idea who David Lindsay is talking to?

Indeed, the OFSTED inspector who gave the Hizb school a clean bill of health had appeared at a conference alongside one of the Hizb activists involved in the school. Perhaps she doesn’t think that there is anything intrinsically wrong about Hizb running a school:

Maybe tricky for the gvt to act on this, but this is certainly rich material for someone willing to take the Ofsted verdict to court on review. Of course the tricky bit is finding that private interested party or organisation.

Lee John Barnes meet Red Deathy, you both have much in common.

HuT and the BNP are exactly the same kind of fascist scum, just different drag.

amie,
I don’t think the islamic schools get a standard OFSTED inspection. Something another commenter (Metta?) wrote made me think that there is a special branch of OFSTED for them. And that also makes me suspect that the teaching in these schools may be in a language other than English, but that’s a bit speculative on my part. It would sharply reduce the risk of getting an inspector who does any serious inspecting.

There are actually two issues here, and I am reminded of George Orwell’s famous comments about other people’s views of Salvador Dali. Fit and proper person checks take forever and threats of legal action against enforcement take even longer. Flavio Briatore is still a Director of Queens Park Rangers FC. Hair-splitting arguments about his involvement in Motor racing continue.

Whether or not HuT people are involved in the two Schools and the Foundation requires careful checking. Two prominent Tories have high-profiled an attack without careful checking.

Now where’s the easiest and most public target?