Harry's Place

I think Joe90Kane is the perfect example of how Scottish Celtic nationalism can go down the same antisemitic path of the nationalisms of the rest of Europe.

Gene you dhimmi know-nothing, it matters not what the Juden do or say or how many Arabs are playing in Israeli professional football, as long as the Palestinians and other Muslim Arabs continue to take Islam and its teachings of Jihad seriously, there will always be conflict and hatred. As far as conflict and hatred go, the “moderate” terrorists of Fatah/PA are openly plotting a third intifada, it don’t matter if every football team in Israel fields Arab players, another Intifada may be on its way. Even if all Jews in Israel were dhimmi know-nothings like you Gene, the Jihad would not go away. Gettit? No Gene I know you don’t.

Hey Gene how come the teaching of jihad martyrdom against Jews and the Nazi-like demonisation of Jews in the schools and mosques, the official media of the PA, the statements of its leading politicians selling Jew-hatred (I’m not talking HAMAS here) doesn’t draw any comment from you Gene, but you know Israeli football teams, you get your panties in a twist? Gene, like David T, you ought to move to blogging at the Guardian. Really.

SPSC and Gene – same coin same side. the SPSC are just more honest about what side they are on.

I am a realist, and I am no longer interested in the high motives yet blind aspirations for a faux “peace” which ends up costing the lives of Israelis time and time again. It is up to the Arabs to show they actually want coexistence.

The idea of trade unions owning a football team or football teams being “right” or “left” is itself a bit unsettling. But nothing on the SPSC of course.

Bigotry and Scottish football are hardly strangers to one another, but this is a sad development. The SPSC are a nasty, vicious bunch and I wouldn’t pish on them if they were on fire.
I’m sure the Celtic fans will have the good sense to ignore them.

Into the memory hole we go…

Rhodesian football teams were almost all black and the Rhodesian Football Association and league were held up as an example of the truly, deeply, sincerely non-racial nature of the country. As bollocks went it was quite good. Much better than this load of old tosh that you are trying it on with here.

Rhodesia vanished down history’s toilet by the way.

Yes, Exile, and look what a paradise for its black citizens has replaced it.

i work for an organisation in tel aviv supporting the african refugee community and the club organised a collection amongst the fans of food and clothes for our hostels.

they are picking a fight with the wrong people

Larry Moonsong and Exile: Two sides of the same coin.

Thanks Gene for this post.

Thanks also for all the sane commentators on this thread,
i.e. everyone besides Larry Moonsong & Exile.

Isn’t it weird they always boycott left wing groups/organizations: universities, culture festival, movies…. and know a left wing team…..funny……..

Given the long track record of bitter sectarian hatred between Celtic and Rangers, are we entirely sure it’s the team from Israel they are protesting against?

The idea of trade unions owning a football team or football teams being “right” or “left” is itself a bit unsettling.

The idea of football teams being right or left is common outside of Britain. Over here we have protestant or catholic, which is not particularly a healthier situation.

In terms of this situation, Celtic is traditionally a catholic team, and would therefore be expected to be pro-Palestinian, obviously for completely well-thought-through, intellectual reasons and not childish tribalism at all. Maybe the SPSC are protesting against Celtic because they regard them as splitters?

Isy 30 November 2009, 8:05 pm

Isn’t it weird they always boycott left wing groups/organizations: universities, culture festival, movies…. and know a left wing team…..funny……..

Yeah, there just doesn’t seem to be anything left wing about them; they buddy up with right wingers and crypto-fascists (Hamas, Hezbollah, Achmedinejad) and ignore or attack the many left wing parties on both sides of the Arab-Isreali conflict.
And of course the war in Iraq is now hardly mentioned at all by these people. This is why I won’t have anything to do with them; if you support fascists, you’re my enemy.

I don’t care how many of you there are or how that descision got arrived at – mindless groupthink and fascist coddling should be right out for socialists, and it sickens and shames me that it’s happening here.

The term “scapegoat” comes to mind where Isreal is concerned right now. And no, I’m not a big fan of the whole Ulster-style situation that’s been created there over the last 60 years, but shit, that doesn’t mean you side with the fash does it? Whatever happened to the working class?

Monty – according to the comments over at Socialist, Unity Celtic (and Catholics in Scotland and Ireland) are deemed to be pro-Palestinian, while Protestants (and presumably Rangers supporters) are deemed to be pro-Israeli.

This is not something I have ever heard before.

Well said sir! Just a bunch of dole scroungers with nothing better to do really.

There’s no way SPSC and Beitar are different sides of the same coin. Rather like calling the Ulster Paisleyites (DUP) and Millwall different sides of the same coin.

SPSC is a political movement which supports the boycotting of the state of Israel and all cultural, trade and political activities by Israel and any group which supports it. It campaigns for this purpose and runs various stunts (such as disrupting some football matches and trying to get others shut down) which it decides are supportive of Israel, regardless of who participates.

Beitar Jerusalem’s fans, who are notorious for their racism towards Arabs, are the Israeli equivalent of Millwall’s football fans, not SPSC. Beitar’s crowd are the Israeli equivalent of chavs, not an organized political group like who SPSC. Beitar fans scream racist chants, and were delighted that one of their non-Israeli players, a gentile Eastern European from one of the former Soviet satellites, expressed the view that Israel was too soft on its Arab enemies and should adopt a shoot-to-kill policy. The Beitar fans chanted ecstatically that he should be made Chief of Staff, which does show they have a sense of humour, albeit a distorted racist one. But they are also almost all from Arab countries where their parents had plenty of stories to tell about life as second class citizens, and they lived through the period when Jerusalem’s buses and cafes were regularly being blown up with people they knew and cared about it in them. However, almost to a man they are followers of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who believes that land (including West Bank land) should be ceded for peace if there is genuine evidence that the Palestinians desire peace.

They were originally founded by the Beitar movement (the youth movement of Likud) but Beitar and Likud did not have any real control over them. In fact, till last year, Beitar was owned by Arkady Gydamak, a far right ex Oligarch from Russia, who bought them up (but also favoured a negotiated peace with the Arabs, but ditched them when he had to flee the country to avoid his dodgy deals catching up with him. Even Gaydamak had the belief that he could promote peace through dialogue with Palestinians.
There are not SPCS types who believe in that.

SPSC is an opportunist political group, doing the bidding of the SWP and related marxist groupuscules that run it. They regard Tel Aviv as just as much occupied territory as the West Bank, and they will see peace projects involving Arabs and Jews working together as just so much Uncle Tommery by collaborating Palestinians bought with Jewish, sorry, zionist gold.

It’s a cheap and inadequate ploy to create a moral equivalence between such very different organizations as SPSC and Beitar Jerusalem by attempting to portray Beitar Jerusalem as an arm of Israel’s Likud Party, and its fans’ behaviour as being the result of Likud propaganda.

Ana, that’s interestinhg, but what exactly do you mean by “deemed”? Is that the general impression they convey to the Scottish churchgoing public at large, or is it something that Socialist Unity alone claims to have detected and that has gone unnoticed by everyone else?

What Judy said.

Judy, Bibi Netanyahu is a famous fan of Beitar. A genuine question: has he ever denounced the anti-Arab behavior of other Beitar fans? I remember when I was living in Israel and he spoke at a Beitar victory celebration. A part of the crowd was chanting quite audibly “Mavet l’Aravim” (Death to Arabs) and he said nothing about it.

Joe Camel

Socialist Unity appear to be doing the ‘deeming’ in this instance. I think Short Order Cook (whose post is above mine) seems to know more than I do :)

I have dated some Old Firm fans in the past and this is not something they have ever mentioned, although they were not very politically minded.

since we’re on the topic of soccer/football, I just want to say I never understood the whole idea of being a fan. No one is a fan of a team because of it’s players or couch or even administration, since they change all the time. I thought it was because of the affiliation the name of the team has (Hapoel – socialist left; Maccabi – capitalist bourgeoisie etc…), but I have a friend who is a left wing Ashkenazi Jew who is also a fan of Beitar, so now I’m really confused.

but I have a friend who is a left wing Ashkenazi Jew who is also a fan of Beitar, so now I’m really confused.

Being a fan of a team that excludes Arab players doesn’t seem very leftwing to me.

A mixed football team is a nice piece of PR but otherwise a Band-Aid on a running sore.

I don’t in any way endorse the politics of Socialist Unity – and would be unlikely ever wave a Palestinian flag, but you have ignored the points they (Socialist Unity) make about the conditions Palestinians must endure.

That said, I think there are clubs with healthier traditions than others. Sooner St. Pauli than Hamburg any day, and likewise sooner 1860 than Bayern, and it goes without saying, sooner Spurs than that other lot.

I thought FIFA had a ‘kick racism out of football’ campaign going. May I presume that they will be taking strong and definitive action against this disgusting campaign?
Kadima HaPoel!
Spot on, Judy.

Equating Beitar football team with the openly anti-Semitic SPSC is outrageous. So far as I am aware there are no English youngsters of Pakistani/Bangladeshi origin playing for Manchester United in the Premier League does that make Manchester United racist? This post is foolish. Beitar are free to choose what players play for the team regardless of ethnicity or religion as long as they do not follow a discriminatory policy. If you are saying they are following a discriminatory policy then why not write an open letter to the Jerusalem Post accusing the management of being racist but be sure you have hard evidence to back up that libel.

ana
Republicans in Northern Ireland have aligned themselves with the Palestinians since the 1970s.Similarly, Loyalists have tended to support Israel as fellow “settlers under siege” – hence Paisley’s prominence in the Northern Ireland Friends of Israel group.Whether the average Catholic or Protestant football fan makes the same connection is less certain.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_Irish_Republican_mural.jpg
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1237392661225

This is the first time I’ve ever felt ashamed to be a trade unionist. (But at least I’m not Scottish.) Surely something should be done to stop this stunt. Inciting racism at a football match has got to be the pits.

You have failed to address these points:

Israel attacks Palestinian sports facilities, bombed Gaza stadium.

Israel usually prevents the Palestinian team from competing:

• Before the last World Cup, Israel forced Gaza players to wait weeks at the Israeli controlled
Rafah border to join their West Bank team-mates for training – in Egypt!

• Stopped from travelling to play a World Cup qualifier in Singapore in 2007, they were eliminated for failing to turn up. FIFA refused to allow them to re-schedule.

• The team were barred from travelling to India in May 2008 for the AFC Challenge Cup with possible qualification for the 2011 Asia Cup.

• The Palestinian National Youth Football Team was barred from re-entering Gaza for over a month after they competed in Jordan in June 2007.

• The British government helped Israel by refusing visas to enter Britain for a tour – the official reason being that the Palestinian players were ‘too poor to be trusted to return home’. (These are the most tenacious people in the world in clinging to their homeland despite massive Israeli violence!)

• The team are usually forced to play “home” matches in a virtually empty stadium – abroad.

• Israel allowed the Palestinian national team one single match on home soil, in October 2008 but not in Jerusalem and team captain, Saeb Jundiya, was barred from leaving Gaza.

During Israel’s assault on Gaza three Palestinian players were killed in their homes by Israeli bombs: Wajih Mushtahi, Khalil Jaber and Ayman Alkurd.

Israel bans footballs (as well as pasta and coffee) from entering Gaza! Israel claims footballs, pasta and coffee could be used for military purposes. The real purpose is to cause hunger and misery to the people of Gaza.

Thank you Judy for the insight, truly a great comment!

Beitar are free to choose what players play for the team regardless of ethnicity or religion as long as they do not follow a discriminatory policy. If you are saying they are following a discriminatory policy then why not write an open letter to the Jerusalem Post accusing the management of being racist but be sure you have hard evidence to back up that libel.

Is it simply coincidental that Beitar is the only leading Israeli team without at least one Arab player? Look what happened when the Beitar captain simply said he’d like to see an Arab player on the team. As things stand now, a large part of Beitar’s fans simply wouldn’t put up with it.

“• The team are usually forced to play “home” matches in a virtually empty stadium – abroad.”
Yes, we know all about that because Israel played under the same conditions for years whilst suicide bombers were exploding in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and as a result FIFA would not allow foreign teams to play in Israel.
And of course if some young Palestinian men did not have a penchant for terrorist activities, there would be no need for travel restrictions on the others.

You have failed to address these points

I don’t have time to fact-check all those points (from the SPSC website), but I’ll simply note that HaPoel Tel Aviv is not responsible for Israeli policy.

Thank you Moritz for that information. Surely Scottish football already has enough historical animosity adopting more historical animosity from across the world?

Spurs Fan – As Gene said, these points would need to be fact checked and dealt with separately, at some length. Even if we work on the premise that Israel is at fault in all those instances (along with the UK Immigration Service with regards to the visas and FIFA) then SPSC should direct their protests at the Israeli Government, the UK Government and FIFA.
The Israeli/Palestinian issue, like the issue of Northern Ireland, is far too complex and important to be reduced to flag waving at a football match. In the case of Scotland, sectarianism has done more harm than good.

Spurs fan if he is one is highly selective. I am quite sure that there were probably very good reasons for Israel to have taken the action it did if indeed it did but if Arab terrorists fire eight thousand rockets at Sederot some fired from the very Stadium he mentions and kidnaps its soldiers should Israel let them play football? If they need pasta and footballs what’s stopping them bringing them in from Egypt – Oh sorry I forgot Egypt is blockading Gaza or in that case bringing them through the tunnels with the other contraband. If by tenacious you actually mean cruel and vicious which includes throwing their own compatriots with whom they disagree from off of the tops of buildings then I would have to agree. BTW (1) Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel and (2) those football players would be alive today if Arab terrorists had not fired those rockets on innocent Israeli civilians equally I am sure quite a few German footballers died in WWII so what is your point exactly?

If I’d put the word ‘without’ before the word ‘adopting’ in the second sentence, that post might have made some sense. Apologies.

The gang of fools known as the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, in unfortunate and baffling cooperation with the Scottish Trades Union Congress, is planning a protest when the HaPoel Tel Aviv soccer club plays Glasgow Celtic on Wednesday December 2.

Are you sure that it isn’t the state of Scottish football that they will be protesting about?

Gene, thanks for the link to the story about the apology that the Beitar team captain gave after he was bold/rash enough to say Beitar could have Arab players. It is clear Beitar wants to attract the anti-Arab Israeli Jews as their fans.

Gene, great post. Judy, thanks for your comment

Spurs fan – before you swallow the SPSC bait, have a look at the preparations for Id el Adha a few days ago in Gaza:
http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-64161.html

Spurs Fan: Israel and the Palestinian terror groups, Fateh and Hamas are at war. And, in the words of my fellow Yankee, General William T. Sherman, “War is war and not popularity seeking”.

To Ana – according to the comments over at Socialist Unity, Celtic (and Catholics in Scotland and Ireland) are deemed to be pro-Palestinian, while Protestants (and presumably Rangers supporters) are deemed to be pro-Israeli. This is not something I have ever heard before.

As Joe says, it depends what you mean by ‘deemed’. There is a perception in the UK of a confluence of interest between Loyalists, Afrikaaners and Zionists. This has arisen in a variety of ways. Notorious Loyalist leader Ian Paisley was viewed in this country as a racist authoritarian bigot, Afrikaaners were self-declared racist authoritarian bigots. Zionism could be viewed, uncharitably, as racist authoritarian bigotry writ state-size.

In religious outlook there is a correlation between the Orange Order and Afrikaaner Calvinism. And both are/were in sympathy with political Judaism.

Sentimental Fenians/Catholics/Celtic supporters side with those they perceive to be under a similar yoke of oppression and dispossession as the plucky Irish; black South Africans and Palestinians, with whom they like to identify because of their just cause and heroism. Thus the linkage between Israel and Apartheid.

Militant Rangers fans are at the forefront of organised football violence. Witness their grotesque displays of Neo-Nazi behaviour at stadia across Europe. And their links to Loyalist terrorism and the BNP. Favourite footie song of Rangers fans, English hooligans and EDL/BNP supporters alike? – “No Surrender to the IRA”. Note also BNP support for Israel despite their anti-Semitism.

Isy – since we’re on the topic of soccer/football, I just want to say I never understood the whole idea of being a fan

Supporting a football team is like a tribal identity. You choose when you’re young and then you’re stuck with it. It means you can glory in the achievements of strangers, but that you have to live with the shame and disappointment of losing when they do. But once you chosen to care one way or another it’s a hard thing to shake off.

So, the Far Left are a bunch of nasty, hateful bastards.

On that bombshell…..

Live long and keep exposing the extremists.

Judy: Regarding what that Russian Beitar player said. No doubt there are plenty of Beitar fans who wish that Israel would do to the Palestianians what Putin (Czar of All the Russians) did to Checnyia, i.e. make a desert and call it peace!

There’s no way SPSC and Beitar are different sides of the same coin. Rather like calling the Ulster Paisleyites (DUP) and Millwall different sides of the same coin.

I don’t know a lot about Beitar, but I do know a bit about Milwall. Whatever problems they may have had with their fans over the years, no objective watcher of football could justifiably claim that the actions of a few hundred morons are in any way encouraged or endorsed by the club, or that the club itself revels in the image it’s been saddled with.

The allegation against Beitar is that it is institutionally racist (e.g. it doesn’t sign Arab players). So the fanbase is a self-fulfilling prophecy rather than an unplanned social phenomenon.

However, almost to a man they are followers of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who believes that land (including West Bank land) should be ceded for peace if there is genuine evidence that the Palestinians desire peace.

“Almost to a man”? I think you’d find it difficult to make any claim for how almost all Milwall fans think about anything; not because they are especially apolitical and/or irreligious, but because their politics/religious affiliations do not define or even inform their support for their club. Insofar as there may be dominant charactersitics, these are purely incidental. It would be difficult to make the same case for a club where “almost to a man” the fans are followers of a particular figure.

Beitar Jerusalem’s fans, who are notorious for their racism towards Arabs, are the Israeli equivalent of Millwall’s football fans, not SPSC.

Sorry, but this is way off. There is certainly a longstanding if informal link between far-right thuggery and organised football violence, but the racism aspect is overplayed. Some of the knuckle-draggers will gladly clear their throats with vile, racist numbskullery of the first order, but this is almost always little more than delinquent non-conformity. There’s no conviction behind it because after supporting their club there’s very little else to give. Take a long, hard look at Millwall fans in action and it invariably reveals one set of pissed-up Anglo-Saxons going head to head with their counterparts from a.n.other club. No-one is looking for ‘Pakis’, or ‘Wogs’; they’re looking for ‘West Ham’.

It’s one thing to take exception to what you perceive to be an unfair comparison (comparing Beitar to the SPSC), but you don’t rebut this with your own false equivalence.

Form what I have learned about Beiter both on here on and elsewhere, I’d say they’re getting off lightly being compared to the SPSC. I’m struggling to understand the source of your objection.

‘Beitar’, obviously.

but I’ll simply note that HaPoel Tel Aviv is not responsible for Israeli policy.

And nor is Betar Jerusalem. Really, it is quite ridiculous to make this particular football crowd the focus of a blog post seeking to make some sort of equivalence with SPSC which is a political movement of Trotskyists and radical left trade unionists, who have no stake in the conflict and which embraces anti-semitic discourse in the name of anti-zionism.

A correct parallel might also be drawn between Celtic/Rangers and Betar. When will Celtic start employing and celebrating Protestant players, and Rangers do the same for Catholics? And even if they do, will that stop the religious hatred and taunting from issuing from the mouths of supporters on match days?

And as far as I know Tottenham Hotspur fans are still jeered at as “Yids” (because so many London Jews traditionally supported Spurs), and Spurs fans in response call themselves Yids and wave Israeli flags. And the football crowd haters of Spurs make gassing noises at Spurs fans to wind them up. (Chelsea fans are famous for this).

So as far as political analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is concerned, it’s better to avoid the sort of crude analysis that matches what spews out of the mouths of the most tribalist supporters.

The overwhelming majority of Israel sports fans are proud of those Arab athletes who are amongst Israel’s best and celebrate their achievements with typical Israeli overstatement when they win.

But that doesn’t get any political credit from the boycotters anyway.

I worked with Hapoel Tel Aviv’s programs briefly and one of the things we did was bring Palestinian and Israeli children together for football games. We also brought mentally disabled children from East and West Jerusalem together to play. Just horrible, horrible stuff really. There are aspects of Israel that can be boycotted, but things like this, show how absurd and blind so many of the boycotts are.

And as if the above was not enough, next week we have this lot to look forward to:
http://www.waronwant.org/news/events/events/latest-events/16724-israel-the-palestinians-and-apartheid-the-case-for-sanctions-and-boycott

Amie – I understand that Bogani Masuku has called for the expulsion of Israel-supporting Jews from SA – do you know anything more?

I am frankly astonished, Gene, at the surprise why is it that SPSC targets the most left-wing, peace-oriented Israeli football team. The score is really this: SPSC does not want the things that Hapoel Tel Aviv is doing. They don’t want Jews and Palestinians living together in some sort of peace and reconciliation. They don’t want bridges between communities. They feed on blood.

Is Beitar Jerusalem “the same” as SPSC? Well, they wave yellow, SPSC wave green and this will be enough for somebody to claim that they are different. And it is futile to argue whether a football club is “the same” as a political pressure group. So let me phrase it like that: SPSC needs Beitar and Beitar needs SPSC, since they both need hate – and the best, most generic hate is mutual and reciprocated.

Finally, all that remains is to hope that the Tel Aviv Reds wipe the floor with the green/whites and progress to the next stage of Europa League. And were Walid Badir to score, that’s an icing on the cake.

And, if I may add, were Gili Vermuth to score, that’s also icing on the cake. With Hapoel TA it isn’t ethnicity, it is the shirt.

When will Celtic start employing and celebrating Protestant players, and Rangers do the same for Catholics?

Celtic’s most celebrated player – Kenny Dalglish – was not only a Protestant, but also a boyhood Rangers fan.

Graeme Souness signed Mo Johnston in 1989(?). A Catholic and ex-Celtic legend.

There remain bigots on both sides, but both teams have in the past and do now sign players from across the religious divide. (Just no-one told Marco Negri not to cross himself when he scored at Ibrox.)

And as far as I know Tottenham Hotspur fans are still jeered at as “Yids”

With respect, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And the issue not whether bigotry and intolerance can be found on the terraces of Britain, and Holland and Germany as well as Israel (it can be), but whether clubs encourage and endorse such behaviour, whether explicitly or just by the manner in which they conduct their business.

The accusation against Beitar is that the clib is institutionally racist, not that it is followed by a minority of fans who behave abysmally. This is the premise for Gene’s comparison with the SPSC. I don’t know enough about Beitar to be comment either way, but your rebuttal wider of the mark than a Bobby Zamora free-kick.

Actual Palestinian / Israeli issues are totally irrelevant to to the sectors where far left merge into far right. Viva Palestina, SPSC etc. couldn’t give a flying fuck if Hapoel are left wing or whether their captain is a Palestinian.

“Palestine” is simply a badge these cunts wear to show how “radical” they are.Beyond that, there’s nothing. The politics hide the fact that all these people are basically airheads.

Beitar actually have a very cool strip:

http://www.israeli-t.com/Sport-t-shirts/Israel-Soccer-t-shirts/Official-Beitar-Jerusalem-Team-New-2009-2550/

This article has inspired me to buy one and nail my colours to the mast for Israel.

The politics hide the fact that all these people are basically airheads.

Airheads is not the phrase I would have used.

Thank you Fact Checker for your explanation.

The point of this silly article is to compare the idiots of the SPSC with the idiots amongst the supporters of Beitar Yerushalyim. Point made – big deal. I don’t think you can compare a political movement with a bunch of football fans – and I think this is to what Judy meant by bringing up the Millwall simile.

One small correction: the (in)famous clip of Netanyahu and the racist chants of B.Y. fans. The media in Israel is noted for its anti-Likud stance and the microphones were placed close to the supporters and matched with footage of Bibi speaking. It was subsequently proved that he could not have heard them as he was hundreds of metres away.

I don’t think you can compare a political movement with a bunch of football fans – and I think this is to what Judy meant by bringing up the Millwall simile.

I’m getting bored saying this. The allegation is that Beitar is institutionally racist; that it forments racism/bigotry amongst its fans with its attitude towards Arab players, etc., and is not just a club unlucky enough to be followed by more than its fair share of morons.

This might all be easily disprovable, but no-one’s actually doing a decent job of disproving it. I’m not even saying the onus is on Beitar and its supporters to disprove it, but if you’re going to take up cudgles you have to deal with the accusation laid and not the one you would have preferred was laid.

Gene is not comparing the SPSC with a “bunch of football fans”, but an Israeli football team which is allegedly institutionally racist.

One small correction: the (in)famous clip of Netanyahu and the racist chants of B.Y. fans. The media in Israel is noted for its anti-Likud stance and the microphones were placed close to the supporters and matched with footage of Bibi speaking. It was subsequently proved that he could not have heard them as he was hundreds of metres away.

I’ll take your word for it. But has Bibi ever spoken out forthrightly against this sort of behavior by Beitar fans?

Gene comments
“Being a fan of a team that excludes Arab players doesn’t seem very leftwing to me.”
Actually a team in the UK or Europe that would exclude Israeli Jewish players as part of a sports boycott against “apartheid” Israel, would seem very leftwing to me. No this hasn’t happened of course, I’m just saying if it did, it would be very leftwing..I realise this is over your head Gene.

Agreed that the calling of “death to Arabs” from Beitar fans is disgusting, and should be dealt with in some fashion. Hey I support Ha’Poel Tel Aviv.

Gene again with his Netanyahu Derangement Syndrome:
“But has Bibi ever spoken out forthrightly against this sort of behavior by Beitar fans?”

Has Gene ever spoken out forthrightly against Mahmoud Abbas and his fascism and stoking of terrorism? Uh not that I know of. It’s called priorities. Gene clearly shows where his lie.

Israelinurse: I’m guessing that your information about Bongani Masuku comes from the links which I have been sending to various people, who have then passed them on. Yes it is true among his many rants he is calling for the expulsion of all the Jews, minus the 310 who are members of the SA equivalent of Independent Jewish Voices. The intimidation of Jews is highlighted by the fact that Cosatu had an illegal demo not outside the Israeli embassy but outside the main Jewish centre in Jewish suburbia which demo then marched on to the shul founded by my grandparents and where my relatives still worship, where Kasrils and co burned the Israeli flag. He promised to make life hell for Jews in Orange Grove (Jewish suburbia where the centre is) Unfortunatelly his London debut is on Fri night so I can’t go.

http://supernatural.blogs.com/weblog/2009/03/bongani-masuku-at-wits.html
-
http://blog.z-word.com/2009/02/cosatu-antisemitism-and-my-in-box/

“Zionism could be viewed, uncharitably, as racist authoritarian bigotry writ state-size.”

Well, it could be, I suppose, if it was an ignorant fool doing the viewing. There is a strong and well-observed tradition of antisemitism among Irish Catholics which I’m sure makes the sentimentalization of the Palestinian cause (with its ‘justice and heroism’) go down that much more smoothly.

Both the Palestinian Arab organizations and Irish Republicanism from the Provos onwards were characterized largely by two joint characteristics: very great self-love and the deliberate targeting of civilians in terror operations. So I’m sure they find a great deal to talk about.

Provo-ism, as far as it looks from the outside, lost because it was at war with the majority population of the area under dispute. The British successfully infiltrated, out lasted and destroyed it. Palestinian Arab nationalism is currently split in two and in a state of disarray of which many of my Palestinian coleagues are privately deeply ashamed. So again, as murderous and defeated phenomena, I’m sure that once again, the bonds run deep.

The two deserve each other, and I hope they have a nice little joint self love-in on the trashcan of history. Here in the Jewish state, meanwhile, the economy is booming, a truly ‘oppressed and disposessed’ people is building its present and its future, and things are just fine.

“The Likud team is Beitar Jerusalem, the only Israeli soccer team which has never had an Arab or a Moslem player”

Arab player is correct.

However, Beitar did have a Muslim player a few years ago of African descent. The name escapes me, but he didn’t last long with the team due to poor form. He said something when he left about his faith etc but I cannot find any articles on it.

a little known point for thought – Beitar Jerusalem has a rather significant Israeli Arab and Palestinian following. The bigots tend to be a rather small group of young and vocal idiots. Ironically, for years Beitar was considered the blue collar working man’s team while Hapoel was and is the rich-elites team, even though created by the unions.

There is a deep history about Israeli sports you are not familiar with, and the majority of Beitar fans, former players and current ownership do not share the stupid beliefs this group a fans express. There is even a pettion going around by the fans to condemn them.

So – while your criticism is actually welcomed, please do not exaggerate with the generalizations based soley on media reports that do not tell the whole story.

Thanks Amie.

Judy:

“Beitar Jerusalem’s fans … are the Israeli equivalent of Millwall’s football fans”

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. There is little, to no, crowd issues in Teddy and violence out of the stadium is rare (though sadly, like with society in general here, it’s increasing).

“One of their non-Israeli players, a gentile Eastern European from one of the former Soviet satellites, expressed the view that Israel was too soft on its Arab enemies and should adopt a shoot-to-kill policy.”

I think Kale is from Croatia …

“The Beitar fans chanted ecstatically that he should be made Chief of Staff”

Don’t remember this … Source please.

You also neglect to mention the impact of being ’second class’ citizens in their own country (the whole Ashkenazi/Mizrachi divide).

“However, almost to a man they are followers of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef”

Big generalization here … Many do, many don’t. Just because so many are Mizrachim, doesn’t meant hey all hold by Ha’Rav Ovadia.

Gene:

“I’ll take your word for it. But has Bibi ever spoken out forthrightly against this sort of behavior by Beitar fans?”

Neither has Olmert – and is a big fan of their’s too.

I have an issue with the racism of some Beitar fans. As one (I live in Jerusalem), I don’t go to games any more – as do most of my friends – due to this behavior. That people, Gene here most notably, will generalize us is sad.

What I would like to note is that while Beitar fans get it worse, I find the same levels of anger/hatred throughout the league here (be it Beitar, Hapoel, Mac Tel Aviv or the ‘Arab’ teams like Sachnin or Nazrat). Beitar will always be in the headlines due to the ‘political affiliation’ of their fanbase (mostly Likudnikim, or more to the right) or due to the ‘history’ of their fan base (originally poor Mizrachim who were thrown to the poorest neighborhoods of Jerusalem and ridculed etc, this also translates in the basketball vs football following).

dan: Right on the facts, wrong on the diagnosis.

Yes, Beiter has had historically a working-class following. (For the record, a personal story. Many years ago a friend of mine played for Beiter – the only friend of mine that ever player football professionally – while being a member of Communist Youth. And he did it explicitly because for him they were a working class club.) And, frankly, I have no idea how widespread is their racist following: I am quite happy to accept that they are in minority, but I would like some evidence.

The real disgrace is the behaviour of Beitar management, which panders to the worst in racism or, at `best’, turns a blind eye. It is they who make Beitar, uniquely to Israeli football, an Arab-free club, and it is they who feel no need to stand up to racist chants and songs.

Just to correct the one sentence. I wrote, “There is little, to no, crowd issues in Teddy” – I am referring to violence here, not the racist chants

You maybe interested to note this editorial on the most widely read and influential Celtic blog: ‘Celtic Quick News’

One of the benefits of being a club, open to all for over 120 years, is that the Celtic Movement is rich with diversity. That diversity ensures a culture of respect to the ever changing face of Scotland. Our very existence stems from a desire to feed the hungry in the late 19th Century Glasgow, so the need of the world’s downtrodden often echoes within Celtic Park; we are fertile ground for requests for help.

One of the things I really like about the Movement is that no one is in control of it. This means that sentiment emerges from a variety of places. It is unstructured, sometimes contradictory but remarkably democratic, something evident on the pages of Celtic Quick News.

The Movement is not, however, rent-a-demo, open for people outside the Movement to lob in political demonstration requests, especially when that request is low on detail.

Hapoel Tel-Aviv fans are part of the international Alerta anti-fascist movement, which reaches around two dozen clubs, including Celtic and St Pauli . They bear “Say No to Racism” banners at games, in both Hebrew and Arabic and were formed by trade unionists in the 1920s. They will receive the warm welcome all visiting fans get (first time around anyway) at Celtic Park. I am sure they will not bring Iraq or Afghanistan flags to Glasgow in some misguided protest; their geo-political awareness is far too well informed for that.

If you are part of the Celtic Movement and want to respectfully make a point, I would back to you the hilt, but any organisation outside the Movement better come with their Celtic Movement credentials when requesting a political demonstration from fans.

Are the STUC new? I think they must be, we have never heard from them on the many contentious issues affecting Scottish football in the past, but that would be brave and would draw consequences for the STUC, instead of delegating consequences to the Celtic Movement.

A warm welcome to the Hapoel fans, I hope you enjoy your stay in Glasgow and your team get a good hiding tomorrow night.

The racism of some of Beitar’s fans and the pandering to it by Beitar’s management is much like that of some of America’s Major League Baseball teams during the 1950s that were slow to intergrate their teams with Blacks & Hispanics. It was notable particularly in the American League that some teams’ management put off intergration as long as they could in an appeal to the more racist fans. And even when they did intergrate they did so with Black & Hispanic players that were non-stars. In the American League nearly all of the star players were White until the 1970s.

During Cast Lead, some bearded twat from my town was ejected from the Tulloch stadium in Inverness for wearing a keffiyeh. At the same time, the Algerian defender/midfielder Madjid Bougherra playing for Rangers received censure for doing similar.

Joe90Kane recently suggested that a genocide of Zionists would be a “good idea”. Andy Newman excised it on the reasoning that he’d “inadverently” called for violence.

PS My favourite colour is and always will be red, ‘cos of the whole Rangers/Celtic thing.

>> Both the Palestinian Arab organizations and Irish Republicanism from the Provos onwards were characterized largely by two joint characteristics: very great self-love and the deliberate targeting of civilians in terror operations.

Good that you specified the Provos, Paul, considering Yitzhak Shamir’s code-name.

Which was what, Alec M.

“Joe90Kane recently suggested that a genocide of Zionists would be a “good idea”. Andy Newman excised it on the reasoning that he’d “inadverently” called for violence.”

Hilarious.

David, Michael… as in Liam Neeson.

For the benefit of Avram who doubts that Beitar fans cheered for their Croatian player to be made IDF Chief of Staff:

Fans celebrate and scream above all others: “Kale,
Ramat Kal. Kale, Ramat Kal. I ask my neighbor what it means.
Smiles. He explains that Tvrtko Kale (photo) is the name of the port
team, Croatian, and Ramat Kal is the abbreviation of
which means the head of the Israeli armed forces.
Kale days ago appeared on television: “Many friends ask me
how can we tolerate that Hamas continues to hit Sderot and
Ashkelon, “he said. “We Croats have had the same problem
and we solved shooting and killing. Fifty sixty
to try to make peace, without any result. Israel also
should do like us, “said striking with the fist
hand. He added: “Enough.” “Kale had the
courage to say what the politicians do not say, “commented
our neighbor’s place. Guy is not only Israel and the members of the
Family singing. The cry rose from the stadium.

I originally read about Kale on an Israeli site in English, but can’t find that site.

This is a Google translation of this article in Italian. An English article here mentions that the management of Beitar did make some efforts to stop the racist chanting but clearly not nearly enough.

They also chanted ecstatic praise to Saddam for bombing Tel Aviv. Which, taken with the other chants, suggests that they love playing up to their bad-boys image. “Everybody hates us and we don’t care”. Only given that Hebrew reads from right to left, maybe their version is “We hate everybody, and we don’t care.”

I agree that unlike the most renowned English football hooligans, Beitar fan’s violence is purely verbal. But then as far as I know the Chelsea fans who do hissing noises with accompanying chants about the Yids Being On The Way to the Gas about Spurs fans are also free of physical violence. No Spurs fan, gentile or Jewish, has ever been gassed or even merely beaten senseless by these Chelsea fans.

yes, Shamir’s nom de guerre was Michael, as in Michael Collins. And I learned from Irish friends the view that there was neither relation nor resemblance between the freedom fighters of the 1916-21 period and the Provos of the 70s-90s. Hence I do try to be careful in making this clear in my occasional unwarranted interference in the affairs of distant peoples ;)

“For the benefit of Avram who doubts that Beitar fans cheered for their Croatian player to be made IDF Chief of Staff”

Thanks for the cheeky comment Judy – I didn’t ‘doubt’, I just said, “Don’t remember this … Source please”

“They also chanted ecstatic praise to Saddam for bombing Tel Aviv.”

I assume you’ve never been to games in Israel? The “Jerusalem is burning’ chant by Tel Aviv fans is common, as is the “May your village burn down” to Sachnin fans. It’s part of the rivarly, which I personally find goes way too far.

“But then as far as I know the Chelsea fans who do hissing noises with accompanying chants about the Yids Being On The Way to the Gas about Spurs fans are also free of physical violence. ”

I thought most fans do that to Spurs fans? Didn’t Bosnich do his famous ‘Nazi salute’ while with Chelsea? I’m sure it relates to the core of their fan base in the 1940s – or at least I read something about that once!