Harry's Place

The comparison is actually rather absurd. The examples cited are disturbing, but even within Haredi communities, these groups are not widely discussed or feared.

Off-topic, the Obami are such lovely lovely people … they really know how to give it to those Zionists: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1137296.html

Yeze, you’re straining too hard to find fault with Orthodox Judaism. When there’s a fire in a girls’ school in Jerusalem and a bunch of black-clad men in hats forces them back inside to be burned alive because they dared to try and escape without their wigs on, then I will concede you may just have a point.

Joe Camel
26 December 2009, 9:30 pm

Isn’t throwing acid on a 14 year old girl enough???

Yeze obviously believes that the only practical solution to the matter is a final one. He completely endorses the policies followed by the Central Europeans in during the early-middle portion of the 20th century.

For Yeze and vast majority of posters here at Harry’s Place there would be no “Jewish Problem” if there were no Jews.

Europe 1930’s – “Jews to Palestine!”
Europe 2000’s – “Jews out of Palestine”
Europe to Jews Forever -
“Don’t be Here. Don’t be there. JUST DON’T BE!”

Isn’t throwing acid on a 14 year old girl enough???

Isy, I couldn’t agree more that that’s a terrible thing to do in the name of religion, or for any other reason. But please bear in mind that the girl was released from the hospital within 48 hours and that this, as far as I know, is the only case of its kind to have been reported in Israel. So, to compare that, as Yeze does in this post, with what is government-sanctioned standard practice in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, is certainly, as I said the first time, Yeze straining too hard to find fault with Orthodox Judaism.

Religious nuts are bad news. In Israel they’re criminals, so I’m not sure why you chose to conflate them with Saudis. What, exactly, is your point?

Oh, and ‘anon’, Yeze’s piece may be objectionable, but yours is downright nasty and baseless.

They are all pathetic frustrated inadequate men. The muttaween.

They could never tolerate the proximity of women who would never give them a second glance. It drove them mad. Every night of their lives they agonise and rail against the possibility that better men, find joy in the arms of lovelier women.
Under a veil, there might still be beauty to drive a man to distraction. So they burn her, throw their stones at her, or failing that they demand that her sexual organ is removed, so that they need fear her no more. Or throw acid in her face so her allure is destroyed.
If you can’t have it, smash it.

Tim Allon
26 December 2009, 9:51 pm
Religious nuts are bad news. In Israel they’re criminals, so I’m not sure why you chose to conflate them with Saudis. What, exactly, is your point?

While I am not seeking to put words in Yeze’s mouth (so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, Yeze), I think the point is basically:

Religious extremism is bad, and it doesn’t matter what the religion is. The mutaween and the “camp” are both the same as they both wish to forcefully impose their view of the world on others, thus undermining both democracy and basic freedoms (as described in this paragraph: “Mutaween are a real threat to civilian populations around the world, and not just in Israel, or in Gaza and Saudi Arabia. In a democracy, if a group of people is confident in the strength of their own ideas and identity, they will not need to enforce these ideas through violence.”).

Though, the difference is that in Saudi Arabia – a religious extremist totalitarian state – the mutaween are the law; while in Israel – a democratic state – they are criminals; although ones with a certain amount of power in Haredi neighborhoods, which should cause worry, and are also harder to enforce (as described in this paragraph: “It must be noted that in Israel, there is no state support for mutaween. The modesty squads do not reflect Israeli law in any way. They instead seek to stifle the freedoms which Israelis have in a liberal democracy. This means that the state must actively police, monitor and investigate the modesty squads.”)

These disgusting incidents, are repudiated by the overwhelming number of Charedim in Israel and around the world. They are incredibly limited in number and are despised by nearly everyone.

There has been a problem in Ramat Beit Shemesh with groups of extremists, and the local community has been doing everything they can to root them from it’s midst. This is not in any way a community wide phenomena.

Charedi newspapers and websites have carried articles on these extreme elements and clearly condemned them.

I personally have heard Charedi Rabbis referring to people involved in these events as “reshoyim” (evil ones), and stating unequivocally that such actions are not acceptable by any standards and are completely forbidden.

I am surprised that Harry’s Place would allow such an ideologically motivated and badly researched piece to be featured on its site.

Many leftist anti-Zionists distort or exaggerate wrongs that Israel has done, in order to compare Israel to either the Nazis or Apartheid South Africa, all aimed to further ideological goals. Harry’s Place would never feature such an article, and yet it allows Yeze to post articles designed to malign Orthodox Jews (by false comparisons, and exaggerated claims), again in order to further his ideological and theological agenda.

For shame.

I listened to a feature on BBC World service this evening on a Christian orphanage in Bethlehem. The directors explained that many of the children brought there were the result of rape, often of incestuous rape. The raped girls were not regarded as victims but as guilty parties themselves for the dishonour they had brought. There was a discussion of how this concept of dishonour was common to both the Muslim and Christian Palestinian communities, but that whereas the Muslim family response was violence against the girl, the Christian family would although feeling dishonoured, would not act violently against the girl.
There was a deaf baby, the offspring of a vulnerable deaf girl who had been raped by her 3 cousins.
When the interviewer put it to a Muslim community spokesman that the unavoidable inference from this was (and he worded it carefully) that Islam had difficulty in getting across a message of non violence to women accross to its adherents. The Muslim cautioned that he would scratch out the word Islam and replace it with Muslims. All religions he said, Judaism, Christianity, Islam were good, but the Muslims were not carrying it out properly. (Begs the question, why only the Muslims?) And as the law regarded all Christians in W Bank as officially Muslims, no Christians could adopt these children, only Muslims.

Then I read via normblog’s twitter, about a Code Pink fact finding trip to Afghanistan which had left many of its members conflicted about their troops out message after what they saw among the women. They encountered in one NGO refuge a woman who was ill and could only go to hospital with a male escort, in her case her 8 year old son. Ill and burkha hindered, she stumbled on the way and involuntarily touched a man. The son ran home and reported his mother had had immoral contact with a man. The husband chopped off her fingers in front of his clansmen, and then ordered the boy to punch his mother in the eyes.

Yeze, I agree what you report about some Haredi is totally unacceptable, but please stop trying to create a “balanced” picture here.

One morning in Jerusalem, a year or two ago, I was with a group of friends walking along one of the pedestrian streets in the Ben Yehuda area when a black-clad man came up and said something to an American woman who was with us. She was a bit taken aback and annoyed. I asked her to translate, because her Hebrew was much better than mine, and she said he had told her she was immodestly dressed. In fact she was dressed like any tourist would who was aware of the dress code required for entering synagogues and churches. Perhaps because her elbows were just visible beneath her short sleeves … I don’t know, I don’t think she ever found out exactly what it was the old git was complaining about. But she suffered no violence of any kind, did she? Nothing worse than mild annoyance.

So now Israel is a Taliban State and an Apartheid State. Well done HP.

Wind up the Jews, it’s Xmas time!

“This means that the state must actively police, monitor and investigate the modesty squads.”

Quite, but it doesn’t help Yeze’s case that he chooses to draw comparisons between state-sanctioned barbarity the acts of these religious enforcers. If he had likened Israeli tolerance of this group to, say, British attitudes towards jihadist organisations, there might have been something to talk about.

At heart, these kind of people are no different to jihadists, or the sort of Christians who would blow up abortion clinics. But in Israel (as in America), they are the lunatic fringe.

I fully support shooting men who try to deprive others of their freedom.

tim allon, I don’t think he was comparing Israel to SA but this Israeli organization to the mutaween, as you just have (read my previous post)

More of Yeze’s personal crusade against Haredi ‘cos they don’t like his particular strand of bullshit. Judging the majority on the basis of the actions of the minority is stereotyping, Yeze, and that’s the same as racism.

Is Israel so different from the US that they put up with this? If you wondered around the streets in the US beating immodestly dressed women, you’d be very lucky to not be shot the first day. They’d certainly find your unconscious bruised body by the side of the road.

Isy – thanks, exactly!

Quite, but it doesn’t help Yeze’s case that he chooses to draw comparisons between state-sanctioned barbarity the acts of these religious enforcers. If he had likened Israeli tolerance of this group to, say, British attitudes towards jihadist organisations, there might have been something to talk about.

When did I say Israel tolerates these groups?

At heart, these kind of people are no different to jihadists, or the sort of Christians who would blow up abortion clinics. But in Israel (as in America), they are the lunatic fringe.

Agreed.

Also it might be pertinent to point out that using Haaretz as a source of information about Charedim is a bit like using Al-Manar or Al-Jazeera as a source of information about Israel.

The point is that they are not “police” if they are not state controlled. The article is intended to raise the comparison between KSA and Israel, and the comparison is demonizing. The effect is the gradual normalization of antisemitic arguments. Yeze is a nasty little shit, who winds up Jews (although I think he is too stupid and sanctimonious to realize it) with HP’s permission.

The thing is, Isy, you will find here no apologists for this kind of Jewish extremism. Nobody will indulge in moral relativism or attempt to portray these acts as unfortunate but ‘understandable’.

Usually I would take the kind of comparison that Yeze has made as a tool to shed light by an appeal to universal principles. For example, this site regularly makes compares jihadist groups with white fascists, the assumption being that there are those who would condemn the BNP but ‘understand’ jihadists, who need to be persuaded that the two are not so dissimilar.

Of course, these religious enforcers are cut from the same cloth, but a long article making this banal point – with a brief caveat pointing out the supreme difference of state sanction – leaves a foul taste in the mouth.

If Yeze had been appealing to people who might be sympathetic towards or undecided about these criminals (and it seems that such people are few and far between), then this article would have been appropriate, but at HP he would have been far better just saying that these people are a shower of shits and the Israeli government should be investigating what support network they have.

“When did I say Israel tolerates these groups?”

Yeze, you argued that Israel needs to investigate the modesty squads: that was whom I was referring to.

I agree with Tim.

I do though have to disagree with Yeze, even in the strict society of the Charedi community there are different strands. The problem is they are such a closed community in places like Mea Shearim, etc that it’s kind of hard to understand the different ideological/political/religious discussions and disputes that are taking place there. There are many state laws and orders that aren’t enforced in these communities – education, health, crime etc – which makes connection with “the outside world” scarce. This causes the extremism in the community.

You are right Isy, there are many different opinions and “strands” in the Charedi community and just like in any other, there are problems.

There has been a growth of extremism amoungst certain segments of the Charedi world, (just as there has been in the National Religious and Secular world) and this is the subject of much debate, and it has to be said, shame. Still this extremism is small and most people keep their distance from it as much as is possible. At the end of the day the people most effected and inconvenienced by these extreme individuals are Charedim.

Meah Shearim often comes in for bad press, and sometimes this is deserved, but I have to point out there are many many wonderful, honest, caring and tolerant people living there, who just quietly and devoutly live out their lives.

A: What Tim Allon said;

B: What YossiUK said;

C: What Amie said;

D: Are these nutjob Haredi ‘Mutaween’ not anti-Zionist?

>> Wind up the Jews, it’s Xmas time!

Easter’s come early, I see.

Christmas is the new Easter.

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/12/keillor_tk.php

Oops I mean:

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/12/go_away_garrison_keillor.php

My guess is that Garrison “the Very Definition of Schmuck” Keillor was at least trying to make a joke. These people were serious, though:

http://efrafandays.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/bertrand-russell-peace-foundation-betrays-bertrand-russell

First, I would like to say 2 things:
A. I like it that everyone agrees with me. I feel smart. :)
B. My comments seem to be quite long that by the time I finish them people have already replied to my previous comments, so to be clear, my previous comment is in reply to: Yeze 26 December 2009, 11:08 pm

Now, to the matter at hand.

Tim Allon11:34 pm
If this article was posted on some leftist blog/forum (War on Want, Socialist Unity, etc…..) they would have automatically seen this as proof of Israeli “totalitarianism”. But, BECAUSE it is on HP, it’s pretty clear that wasn’t the point, but the point is basically to give his opinion on Israeli internal problems regarding religion, a matter that has for years existed (maybe even since Israel’s creation with the status-quo and other agreements between seculars and religionists). This is not a matter that should be belittled, and according to previous articles by Yeze, is a deep rooted problem in Israeli society. I want to point out, this isn’t a comparison between Israel and Saudi Arabia, but between the mutaween and the “Camp” – in their ideologies, extremisms and convictions and in their ways of actions; NOT in their legitimacy by the state.

YossiUK@ 11:58 pm
We are in agreement that there are different strands in the Charedi community (I don’t really know much about the Charedi community. It is simply a personal philosophy of mine that EVERY community has different strands, no matter it’s size. Heck, we’re both Jewish! You obviously know the saying: 2 Jews = 3 opinions. I live by that myself ;)). I think, as I said in my post at 11:46 pm, that the main reasons for such wide extremism (and perceived extremism) in the Charedi society is mainly do to their closure from the rest of society (I’m not talking about small Charedi neighborhoods in secular cities, but large communities like Meah Shearim).
On the one hand, secular society (like me) have rudimentary knowledge idea of the inner debates and discussions taking place in the community, and hardly any understanding of the logic behind them. This is why many seculars paint them all in one brush (although there is a seed of truth in this, which I will get to next).
On the other hand, this closure facilitates extremism in itself. Many Charedi schools do not teach the elements of education (i.e. math, science, literature etc); many Charedim do not vaccinate their children (in fact a couple of years ago a child was sick with some almost extinct sickness, I think Tuberculosis but not sure, because of this. There were some news reports on this and there was fear that others may have been infected because he was at a wedding with hundreds of guests); there is much distrust in state officials to the point where they are at risk getting into some parts of Charedi neighborhood; moreover, they have their own newspapers and even their own internet site – it’s like a whole different world.
I note that I don’t have any exact numbers, so If you do that suggest otherwise feel free to share, but I feel this is true because of my rudimentary knowledge and general understanding, on top of news reports pieced together with simple logic.

P.S. My post’s wording seems a bit as though I put words in other’s mouth, so Yeze or anybody else, please correct me if I interpreted any of your posts wrong.
P.S.S. (or is it P.P.S.?) it’s late so I won’t be posting my comments for a while, so don’t expect an answer any time soon. In any case, this is a cool discussion :)

Shmuel @ 11.27.

Exactly right.
It is the oldest trick to take the actions of a lone crackpot who is Jewish/Israeli, and to project them onto the majority. The Boruch Goldstein shooting is a good example.

And who says that the links to the newspaper articles reflect, remotely, the truth?

Yeze wants to demonstrate his “fairness” by calling to account the actions of a miniscule minority, and pretending they are the norm.
It’s the first time I have EVER heard of such behaviour amongst the charedi.

Shmuel @ 11.27.

Exactly right.
It is the oldest trick to take the actions of a lone crackpot who is Jewish/Israeli, and to project them onto the majority. The Boruch Goldstein shooting is a good example.

And who says that the links to the newspaper articles reflect, remotely, the truth?

Yeze wants to demonstrate his “fairness” by calling to account the actions of a miniscule minority, and pretending they are the norm.
It’s the first time I have EVER heard of such behaviour amongst the charedim.

Am I the only one who thinks Yeze a classic Christian anti-Semite?

I see Ohad, Yossi, Shmuel, and Greg have already objected strongly to the direction HP has taken. I do wonder, however, what hold this Yeze character has over HP, to bring HP to make common argument with the ani-Semites who hyper-scrutinise Israel’s internal issues. The minority of non-law-abiding Haredim in Israel are no more significant than the problem of polygmous Mormons in the USA.

HP sullies its reputation with Yeze’s articles.

Shmuel, Yossi, and Truth are spot on:

Shmuel

So now Israel is a Taliban State and an Apartheid State. Well done HP. Wind up the Jews, it’s Xmas time!

The effect is the gradual normalization of antisemitic arguments. Yeze is a nasty little shit, who winds up Jews … with HP’s permission.

Yossi

[HP] allows Yeze to post articles designed to malign Orthodox Jews (by false comparisons, and exaggerated claims), again in order to further his ideological and theological agenda. For shame.

Truth

It is the oldest trick to take the actions of a lone crackpot who is Jewish/Israeli, and to project them onto the majority.

Isy,

If – fat chance – Socialist Unity decided to launch an attack on Muslim religious enforcers, they might make a comparison with Jewish extremists because it’s a given that Jewish extremists are evil, whereas the idea that Islamists are to be criticised would be the point in need of arguing.

Yeze is a guest poster, and doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt from me. I’ve read some of his posts, and I’m far more sympathetic towards him than most commenters. I think he’s raised issues of prejudice in Israel against Jewish to Christian converts that should be heard by the people who populate these pages. By the same token, when he’s writing for the same audience, he should be aware than he doesn’t have to compare Jewish extremists to Muslim extremists to make his point, and only invites the sort of attacks that he’s now getting, as you do when you falsely accuse others of belittling the issue. Why would Yeze bother drawing the analogy unless he imagines that his audience would have anything but utter contempt for these Jewish religious enforcers?

If he’d written the same article without the analogy, he’d have had my unqualified approval, although he would certainly have pissed off some who think there’s enough criticism of Israel elsewhere without the need to bring to HP the kind of “balance” to which Amie referred.

But the post is entitled “Saudi & Haredi Mutaween”. It’s hard to believe that the comparison wasn’t Yeze’s main point.

P.S. I don’t believe Yeze is antisemitic (although I don’t think he’s Jewish either!)

P.P.S. It’s “P.P.S” (post postscript).

Criminey Harry’s!!!!

What are you thinking? This is an absurd conflation of a tiny minority of ILLEGAL and highly unusual people/incidents in Israel with state-sponsored and supported “religious police” in other states and territories!

One agrees, Religious Extremism Is Bad.

However there is NO comparison between the actions and legally sanctioned punishments of state sponsored religious police in KSA, Gaza and other states and the behavior, obviously illegal and widely deplored, of a few extremists in Israel.

So what the hell is the point of publishing Yeze’s post? To show that Harry’s too can jump on the bandwagon and “criticize Israel”?

OR WHAT?

Let me know, ok, when Israel, the state, sanctions the burning of Christians or the lashing of women for entertaining men.

Otherwise this remains what it is: the conflation of rare criminal matters with the power of state sponsored police.

Oh I get it. The Haredi are like the Taliban and the Wahhabis.

Nice. No wonder they say, Godless leads to shit……

“So what the hell is the point of publishing Yeze’s post? To show that Harry’s too can jump on the bandwagon and “criticize Israel”?”

yeah and just don’t dare demo against mosques and minarets ’cause that makes you a racist.

And what does this have to do with Israel?
Haredis are everywhere, and they are the same everywhere. Kinda goofy and silly to many but harmless to all.

Yeze, as horrifing as those acts by Mishmerot Hatzeniut are, how exactly does writing about it help you in your quest to be recognized as a Jew in Israel? Take me for example- I am totally non-religious, I’m married to a non-jewish person, and even I will tell you that a person who believes in Jesus is not a jew! and rubbishing some, or even all the religious people here won’t advance you at all in getting to be regarded as a jew. But as it’s really-really fine not to be jewish, Yeze, why don’t you just calm down and stop focusing on fringe problems in a country that has much, much bigger ones.

To those asking why this post was made, I would point out that it’s news as the Jpost article attests.

The modesty patrol, an all-male vigilante group which has been active in the city’s haredi neighborhoods, has been linked to numerous acts of violence over the years in their attempts to ensure the city’s haredi residents conduct themselves in accordance with the conventions of their ultra-Orthodox lifestyle.

While I would say that the Haredi modesty thugs are scum who deserve jail or death, I would point out another difference between them and Islamic Modesty criminals. The Muslims would be attacking everyone, not just members of their own sect.

I agree with Yossi. This is an unacceptable premise, as far as I am concerned. The Saudis use their “committee” in order to enforce societal control, whereas in Israel, these thugs are reviled and arrested.

As I have said before, the misogyny in Judaism is unacceptable and must be abolished. However, these criminals do not represent anything other than the lunatic fringe, and frankly, one guy is one too many, but the larger Orthodox community cannot be held responsible for them.

To some extent, this is monkey see, monkey do. These insecure, not-very-masculine men see the Saudis getting away with this crap, so they do it too. It is disgusting.

The security people in the hospiral compound in which I live in Dhahran, KSA, are very keen to stamp out the appalling and unseemly practice of two genders playing tennis on the same court at the same time and notices to this effect are widely posted.

Bi-gender tennis is therefore played furtively in the dawn hours with alert lookouts posted.

NO! NO! NOT THE MODERATION QUEUE AGAIN!

YossiUK:
You are not fooling anyone. How about the school in Emmanual that segregates Mizrahi girls? Please tell me where I can find condemnation from the Haredi camp.

saudi is great, i love the country…

So that Yeze whoever you or whatever that is is quite clear Jews do not accept JC as the messiah because:
1) He did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) He did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses “referring” to him are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
You may therefore post all the anti-religious tripe you want but it will not alter those undoubted truths and will not make you or those you represent any more acceptable in Israel where your sole purpose is to make mischief and prey on the weak and vulnerable

Coincidentally, I just found this when clearing old newspapers:
In October, after application to the Supreme Court, a committee of the Transport Ministry ruled that gender segregation on public buses in Israel were “unconstitutional and degrading.” and that:
public bus companies “direct drivers not to impose any kind of segregation or discrimination against passengers and…do everything in their power to prevent any kind of coercion or violence between the passengers.”

The committee also recommended that these conditions be part of all public transport licenses and that “no public buses be labelled in any way as ‘mehadrin’ or having any special arrangements of that kind”.
The report still allowed them to run private segregated bus lines as long as they are operated consensually and without any violence or coercion towards passengers.

http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/21431/segregated-public-buses-ruled-illegal

So I think the authorities are pretty much on top of the situation, even without Yeze’s unhelpful exhortations on HP. Yeze needn’t feel obliged to take this burden on himself; it is in good hands. My old friend Anat Hoffman can be relied on to keep up the pressure. My Jewish Women’s group are long time supporters of her Women of the Wall campaign.

http://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/the-simon-round-interview/24481/interview-anat-hoffman

I think HP is right to discuss this matter.
Israelis are not all beyond criticism, & defending both all
its citizens & all governmental action makes for a poor
discussion.
The point to bear in mind, is that these loathsome
extremists who have a similar mindset to various
islamic “moral” police are a tiny fringe minority.
They are not government appointed, & do not have
the active support of most Jews.

I do wish that mankind could grow out of the adolescent
need for organized religion. At this time of year, I find the
Nativity story & its artifacts very moving. If I were a Christian
I would not need a organized Church & legal advantages to
practice my faith.
And as the Middle East shows us, the stronger the belief in
organized religion, the greater the violence.

All neo nazis are not in the Islamic religion.
The Russian Orthodox Church is full of them.
And a tiny, miniscule, number of Jewish fanatics share that
mindset, though they target different victims.
Israel must deal with them.
Fuck religious tolerance, a civilized society trumps all
religious beliefs.

I hardly dare to comment here as Yeze tends to bring out the lynching mobs.

I have not come across any attacks on orthodox Judaism in his posts, only against particular criminal groups such as exist in “Christian” societies too.

Does this remark classify me as an antisemite, which I’m all too obviously not? There is too much of this ‘antisemite’ screaming where it is not intended. Why not calm down and discuss the issue, without becoming like dogs hunting their prey.

Before reading the comments I simply found the article disconcerting but interesting. A small nucleus of people – as one might find in other countries too – being compared to a whole state which practises the same fanaticism. On reflection I do think that in Yeze’s place I would not have posted that article on HP, but even if he had limited himself to a criticism of the Charedi community, I think the lynch mobs would have appeared nonetheless..

Someone wrote that it was a mere fringe problem and that there are bigger ones to deal with. Well, we have our fringe problems to deal with too: the BNP, Nazi louts, Mr. Galloway (a bit more than a fringe, alas!) and they should be taken very seriously. Everyone of the inhuman acts perpertrated by the Charedi is a crime against humanity. Saying it is a small group does not justify them.

I’m sure the democratic principles of Israel are safe – they sanctioned Yeze’s religion – and that the Charedi won’t gain in influence. But societies are prone to swings in the West, for example, there are enough voices that want to go back to rigid principles. Look at the increasing antisemtism in the West, which I thought had gone forever, except in small fringe groups.

This thread is not about Yeze’s religion so I won’t go back into that subject. Israelinurse wrote that the converting practises of the MC’s was not a pretty sight. I asked Yeze to answer this criticism, which he didn’t. Before knowing more, I can’t pronouce, but what I can pronouce is that Yeze himself is one of the most civilised people to write for HP.

I’m sorry to disappointed some of you, but nothing can undo the fact that he is Jewish, not even he can de-Jewish himself, even if he wanted to. David T is a secular atheist and is still a Jew. I have said this before, but it’s a piece of logic tht can’t penetrate some skulls: Lutheran Germans cannot decide that Catholics, Jehovah’s witnesses, atheists, even the members of a satanic sect, are no longer German.

Hitler did not distinguish between orthodox, secular or christian Jews. I don’t know the numbers, but I’d guess that the majority of German Jews who died in the holocuast were secularists and Christians.

I do, however, understand the sensitivity, of more or less orthodox Jews in a fairly hostile world, at present. And I feel it with them. I am, as a non-Jew, an indefatigable warrior for Israel.

I am already ducking my head for the insults that will be thrown at me: Nazi, communist, Stalinist, almost anything will do for the mobbers, for the Stone that could be thrown at me, but for that I already have my shield ready. Before throwing insults stop to think.

Yeze’s agenda is to find and publicise the worst behaviour of orthodox jews in the belief that this will eventually cause people to regard his own deviency, idol worship, as merely another little eccentricity in the rainbow of jewish behaviours, rather than what it is, i.e. evangelical christianity packaged in a way that is designed to subvert judaism.

HP wants to use his ubiquitous posts in order to diminish the perception that it is a jewish or zionist site.

This policy, of using someone else’s wierd agenda to further your own, is extremely stupid.

>> This policy, of using someone else’s wierd agenda to further your own, is extremely stupid.

ouch!

Yeze’s agenda is to find and publicise the worst behaviour of orthodox jews in the belief that this will eventually cause people to regard his own deviency, idol worship, as merely another little eccentricity in the rainbow of jewish behaviours, rather than what it is, i.e. evangelical christianity packaged in a way that is designed to subvert judaism.

This comment is so illogical “idol worship” and conceited that I kind of wish I was a christian just so that I could annoy j.r. as much as he annoys me.

Try some camomile tea and some slow breathing. It might help you to think, Josh.

Great article except the part where you criticised Israel.

j.r. I had sworn to ignore your daft posts, but knowing HP do you really believe they could have an agenda like that? That they are open-minded is proven by the fact that they don’t censor your posts. They allowed Yeze his view and also allow the lynch mob to attack him.

“Then I read via normblog’s twitter, about a Code Pink fact finding trip to Afghanistan which had left many of its members conflicted about their troops out message after what they saw among the women. They encountered in one NGO refuge a woman who was ill and could only go to hospital with a male escort, in her case her 8 year old son. Ill and burkha hindered, she stumbled on the way and involuntarily touched a man. The son ran home and reported his mother had had immoral contact with a man. The husband chopped off her fingers in front of his clansmen…”

Does Code Pink officially stand by this account?
Can it be found somewhere on the internet?

Felix, this site does delete my comments sometimes, for instance when i criticise nanny Blair. There is an editorial policy and it is seriously off the rails here. The promotion of Yeze’s agenda is i think an example of the ignorance and contempt which one poster here displays for the judaic reality of the jewish identity that he dines out on.

By which i mean, jewish identity exists because of judaism, and vanishes in the absence of judaism.

So I think the authorities are pretty much on top of the situation

You’ve got to be kidding!? With under-financed police, officers who are too stupid to read, some Charedi neighborhoods in which no state official is willing to set foot and bus companies who aren’t willing to lose the most organized group of customers; do you really think this will ever actually be enforced? Hell, there are more simpler and less expensive things in Israel that aren’t being enforced.

3) Biblical verses “referring” to him are mistranslations.

I don’t believe that Jesus existed at all (he’s a gestalt character combined with hackneyed mythic figures). However, the above objection to his defence misses the point: the New Testament was written in order to conform as best it could to Prophetic statements in the Torah. Of course, it couldn’t succeed completely, because it is ultimately incompatible, but it did try to convolute its story so that it fit the “predications” as well as it could. As such, to try and pretend that it doesn’t match any of the prophetic statements is ridiculous and counterproductive: it does, and as a teleological project, it would be weird if it didn’t, any more than if a “sealed envelope” magic trick failed to “reveal” the prediction.

> some Charedi neighborhoods in which no state official is willing to set foot.

What neighborhood is that? Probably your imagination has run away with you.

I never said this group was representative of Orthodox Judaism. Where does it say in Judaism for a group of grown men to beat up women?

If, in Britain, there were a group calling itself the Christian Defence of Purity or something, that went round beating people up who didn’t conform to their standards of purity, it would neither be anti-Christian nor anti-British to oppose them vocally.

I can’t see why some commenters are suspicious of my motives – why can’t I comment on what I see as an injustice? But on a personal level, I am concerned that my Israeli friends, who serve in the IDF and pay their taxes, are under threat because of their beliefs.

But some people can’t handle me writing about something which isn’t even 100% directly related to my beliefs! They must have me as a one-dimensional character with malice and selfishness in my heart.

Take Telavivit’s comment:

Yeze, as horrifing as those acts by Mishmerot Hatzeniut are, how exactly does writing about it help you in your quest to be recognized as a Jew in Israel?

As if everything’s about me! This is either prejudice against me for believing Jesus is Messiah (as opposed to Schneerson or Nachman), or an assumption that all writing is, at heart, selfish and Machiavellian.

“This policy, of using someone else’s wierd agenda to further your own, is extremely stupid.”

We all know that David T fetishizes these weirdos. Whether he’s having friendly drink with Atzmon, reminiscing about his old Nazi or Islamist pals from school, or now, deciding to make a Jew for Jesus weirdo HP’s most prominent critic of Israel. Perhaps because he doesn’t like sport, he prefers watching freaks wind people up instead. I admit that it is sort of fun. Sort of niche, hipster-intellectual pro-wrestling. None of it can really be taken too seriously of course, and one must always appear “cool” and above-it-all. Anyway, freaks like Atzmon and this Yeze character are such wonderful participants in this sort of pseudo-sport because they are true believers; they will never change, and will always stay in character.

Maybe Yeze you would get some credibility if you started policing your own christian community rather than exclusively demonising orthodox jews.

J.R. – I’m 100% opposed to anti-Semitism, especially Christian anti-Semitism, and it’s an issue I take very seriously. Not least because Jesus and his disciples were Jewish, as well as 200,000 of his current followers. Anti-Semitism is deeply un-Christian and forbidden by the New Testament. It also separates Gentile Christians from Jewish Christians and leads to divisions and hatred. It is totally wrong to attack Orthodox Jews and spread hatred about them.

Orthodox Jews who attack women and throw acid in the faces of teenage girls are clearly not representing their religion accurately, and those who attack Messianic Jews are ignoring Orthodox Jewish teaching from Gamaliel to the Vilna Gaon. It is also wrong to attack these Orthodox Jews or to hate them, however neither should we let bigotry in the name of religion pass without comment.

Is it anti-Christian to criticise the hate-filled Moldovan priest who led his followers to tear down a menorah? Of course not. It is vital that people denounce him in the strongest terms. I wonder if that priest realised that Jesus himself celebrated Hanukkah.

Shmuel – isn’t Atzmon a Holocaust denier?

Yeze, your posts here are all about bad orthodox jews and this one uses a typical tactic of propaganda – the false comparison. There is a dissonance between the strategy of your critical posts on HP and your defensive comments. Partly this is a result of the christian malaise which I would term “self over-valuing”. It also indicates that your are highly motivated and impervious to argument which is why I think that the preponderance of your posts here is a bad thing for this blog: your contributions have the tenor of pure propaganda.

JP
“I don’t believe that Jesus existed at all…”

He certainly exists in the New Testament as deeply impressed and alive as any charcter in Shakespeare or in the Torah, even if he didn’t exist in the flesh. But there must have been someone behind that figure to produce one of the most extraordinary poetic documents in our history. Same true of Torah or Old Testament). His is a religion of compassion and he utters one jewel after the other of heartfelt wisdom, which have nothing whatever to do with the history of the Christian churches. His sayings have the ring of eternity in them like the best poetry. As Oscar Wilde said, such poetic intelligence comes from individuals and not from collectivities.

I spoke to my Jewish friend, Moses, about the compassion and he told me it can all be found in the Torah. I will have to find out. In Isaiah and elsewhere I imagine.

I think Amie nailed it with this statement

Yeze, I agree what you report about some Haredi is totally unacceptable, but please stop trying to create a “balanced” picture here.

There is so often times an attempt to “balance” the picture, which inevitably winds up needlessly demonizing Israel.
I would be much more receptive to two separate posts. One on the issue in the Muslim world and one on the charedi phenomenon. They are totally different in scope and acceptance.

It is a little like comparing two neighborhoods, and saying that there is crime in both, when in one neighborhood the crimes are largely parking tickets, and the other has murder and robberies (and parking tickets).

Stan

thomask: the link to the Code Pink story, as I said I found via normblog’s twitter:
http://www.saradavidson.com/archive-af.html

Shmuel: I don’t know about fetishes, but he does appear to enjoy collecting them, like a cabinet of curiousities. You left out that sociopath jailbird, I forget her name.

Yeze, your posts here are all about bad orthodox jews and this one uses a typical tactic of propaganda – the false comparison.

Apart from the fact that one group receives state support and the other doesn’t, which I made clear, why is it false comparison?

They’re both modesty squads.

Incidentally I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these haredi squads also targeted Orthodox Jews who are Modern Orthodox or Religious Zionists, or even haredim caught breaking the rules.

There are stories of women who’ve been told to stay indoors because they are too beautiful for men to look upon! Other girls have acid thrown in their faces.

Have a look at this video of a distraught woman beaten up by a modesty squad:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009580.html

Are these thugs better than their Saudi equivalents?

I would suggest that identity politics is the (mis)use of an ethnic or religious identity to further ambitions that are not intrinsically connected to that identity.

Unfortunately Jewish identity and its misuse is the context for Yeze’s campaign on HP. Note that I am not suggesting that Yeze is himself primarily engaged in identity politics.

Yeze @2.23 it is a false comparison, like comparing individual christians who carry out antisemitic acts in democratic societies with the christian governments that carried out or abetted genocide of Jews in the 1940s.

like comparing individual christians who carry out antisemitic acts in democratic societies with the christian governments that carried out or abetted genocide of Jews in the 1940s.

Do you think the Nazis were a Christian government? Why would they re-write the Bible and battle Christmas to get rid of Jesus the Jew?

The reaction of establishment churches to the Nazi regime was on the most part disgraceful. In addition to helping Hitler’s war on Jews and praising the Nazi government from the pulpit, many churches handed over their Jewish Christians to the Nazis.

Felix – I don’t support aggressive missionising but think it’s okay to hand out flyers on street corners and advertise one’s beliefs, etc. which people are welcome to ignore. After all, many Jewish sects proselytise but only the Messianic Jews are seen as uniquely evil for doing so!

Plenty of Jewish religious groups do this too: Chabad proselytise to Jews all over the world, Aish haTorah appeal to secular Jews, Breslover hasidim hand out literature about Rabbi Nachman. The Satmar and the Lubavitcher even had a spat because of Lubavitcher proselytising in Satmar areas.

Christian missionaries may proselytise Jew and Gentile alike, but so do ultra-Orthodox Lubavitchers.

It’s amusing that Shmuel now has me categorised as some kind of weird exhibit, I suppose it is an upgrade from heretical apostate!

what are you telling me, Yeze? The nazis tried to alter a religion to aid their objectives? That wouldn’t do at all, would it :) ?

JR, you’re the one who implied the Nazis were Christian, not me!

Nazis promoted genocide and mass murder, & I don’t.

I see Messianic Jews as going back to the original identity of the Jewish followers of Jesus – they don’t need to take Gentile Christians with them in this – Jews and Gentiles are equals and one isn’t better than the other. We can celebrate our unity with diversity in Yeshua.

The Nazis did believe that one was better than the other, and relegated the Jew to sub-human status, way beneath the Gentile Christian. To me that is far from a Christian message.

Nachman says:

your sole purpose is to make mischief and prey on the weak and vulnerable

That’s hardly fair!

yeze, you’re beginning to understand the concept of a false analogy. As regards the original identity of the jewish followers of jesus – your more likely to discover what colour his pubes were than to discover that. Still its a powerful dream, getting back to the original thing before the two millenia of wars, crusades, slavery, imperialism and genocide schmutzed it up. Clearly the success of christianity has been its popularisation of aspects of jewish ethics. But all that other stuff – parthenogenesis, man-gods, pixies etc – you really don’t need.

Still its a powerful dream, getting back to the original thing before the two millenia of wars, crusades, slavery, imperialism and genocide schmutzed it up.

I know, tell me about it!

“Christian missionaries may proselytise Jew and Gentile alike, but so do ultra-Orthodox Lubavitchers”

Only difference being Lubavitch, Breslov and Aish are genuine strands of Judaism attempting to return Jews to their roots whereas what you represent is not and is nothing but a fraud – be honest and admit that you are a Christian believer and have nothing to do with Judaism! As I have said before I don’t care what religion you profess but I do care and will do all legally necessary to prevent you and those you represent from luring vulnerable and weak Jews away from their religion by having them believe that you are just another strand of Judaism.

Yeze – Thanks for replying. I believe you!

Thanks Felix :)

@settler How is Lubavitch genuine Judaism and Christian Jews not?
Both believe in a divine, resurrected messiah.

Re: Jesus

He certainly exists in the New Testament as deeply impressed and alive as any charcter in Shakespeare or in the Torah,

Shakespeare’s characters were fictional, even when inspired by apparent historical ones. The Torah’s characters are fictional too, except in very few instances. Very often, the Torah and its related works don’t even bother changing the name from the previous gods and demons from which it has plagiarised (see the story of Esther and the characters therein, for example).

even if he didn’t exist in the flesh.

In most religions it wouldn’t matter, but Christianity has made rather a big deal of the pivotal importance of his “flesh”. If there ain’t no flesh, there ain’t no messh..

But there must have been someone behind that figure to produce one of the most extraordinary poetic documents in our history.

A common fallacy proven untrue every time someone creates a compelling figure in fiction. Indeed, your comments about Shakespeare rather demonstrate just that.

And, frankly, I don’t find it particularly extraordinary or poetic. It is hackneyed, trite, contradictory and clunky. Nietzsche puts it well:
“To have glued this New Testament, a species of rococo taste in every respect, on to the Old Testament to form a single book, as ‘bible’, as ‘the book of books’: that is perhaps the greatest piece of temerity and ’sin against the spirit’ that literary Europe has on its conscience.”

That which is interesting in the New Testament is not original, and that which is original is merely confused.

His is a religion of compassion and he utters one jewel after the other of heartfelt wisdom,

QVC jewels, maybe. And greeting-card blandishments admixed with hateful nonsense like the “I come not in peace but bearing a sword, to set brother against brother and father against son” outburst, which nicely contradicts his earlier “why can’t we all just get along” spiel. Jesus seems like a combination of an inane Jonathan Freedland and a grumpy Steven Berkoff (with, in Mark, a touch of the Harry Enfield sullen teenager).

And this doesn’t even touch the point that the Jesus of the epistles (the super sky-daemon) is a completely different character from the Jesus of the gospels (the wondering whiner). Christianity’s parlour trick was combining the two.

His sayings have the ring of eternity in them like the best poetry. As Oscar Wilde said, such poetic intelligence comes from individuals and not from collectivities.

Wilde was wrong. The Iliad et al were written by collectives. Indeed, all the great works of antiquity were. The notion of the “lonely author” and his royalty cheques was a product of mercantilism more than anything.

I spoke to my Jewish friend, Moses, about the compassion and he told me it can all be found in the Torah. I will have to find out. In Isaiah and elsewhere I imagine.

Yes, much of what is considered “compassionate” about the New Testament is actually found in the Old – including such greatest hits as “Love thy neighbour” (Leviticus) and so forth. Again, Leviticus is a generally hateful screed, but does contain these greetings-card niceties as well, which “Jesus” then took and (mis)quoted.

But the Old Testament can’t take all the glory. There’s plenty of Mithra et al to go around and confuse the tale too! Indeed, early Christian apologists explained that the New Testament had been created by God in such a hackneyed, derivative and unoriginal way precisely to allow people from earlier faiths to feel comfortable with it. Clever old God, eh?

>>> ensures that unrelated men and women do not mix publicly, Islamic dress and dietary laws are enforced, non-Muslim religions do not proselytise, and homosexuality, prostitution and fornication do not occur.

I am all for their agenda except for mena and women publicly associating with each other and the non-proselytism part. Proselytism is a basic human right. But this mob should not be the judge, jury, and executioner. This should be done by the state acting independently of religious authorities.

I welcome laws against perverts including what the Bible prescribes as punishment. The radical Moslems have a few good ideas borrowed from our Old Testament.

On the other hand the Holy Spirit empowers change in those homosexuals and adulterers and other perverts who repent and believe. There are scores of thousands of ex-gays (really ex-homosexuals and ex-lesbians) who enjoy normal lives, drives, and family lives. Now that’s proof of the power of God to change man for the better.

Yeze. The Nazis were absolutely part of and used the German (and other) Christian communities and their latent and long-term misojudaism, fear and hatred of Jews based not only on “race” but primarily on Christian bigotry against Jews.

Without this bedrock anti-Jewish sentiment they never would have been able to create the Shoah, period. This was a pan-European phenomenon remember? Jews all over Europe were betrayed and not just IN Europe but also by Britain and they were also turned away by the US.

These were hardly members of the Nazi party were they.

Also I know this regarding German citizens from a very intimate pov, as my husband was born in Germany after the war. His father flew for the Luftwaffe and his mom was a member of Hitler Youth. The latter is a devout Catholic, the Luftwaffe pilot was Lutheran.

We just found out about the Hitler Youth part when we visited “mom” on Christmas Day (go figure).

My sister-in-law similarly considers herself a Good Person Because She Believes In The Christ and she is an antisemite who has declared to us that she is “tired of hearing about the Holocaust”. She’s very anti-Israel and I get to listen to endless propaganda and so forth from her which is a real bore.

My “aunt-in-law”, another “Christian”, says the Holocaust was no big deal because “it was only a few Jews”. I can’t tell you how many “Christians” I know spend a lot of time “criticizing Israel”, meanwhile when I protest they turn around and refer to me as a “typical Jew”.

Now. Do you still want to discuss the Haredim in conjunction with state-sponsored, official religious extremism and violence toward “others”?

One of the above posters did have a good point on that score. Hitler didn’t distinguish between converted or “part” Jews and neither did the Inquisition.

So in a sense Yeze, you are stuck with your Jewish identity which you so loudly proclaim from the safety of Israel.

In the wrong time and the wrong place your Christian religion wouldn’t protect you from antisemites. But maybe in Israel you’d have a fighting chance of survival.

So maybe, next time Yeze, you can divide your articles as suggested above and stop making false comparisons that only work to damn Jewish people and the state of Israel, and don’t really shed any new light on the mutaween.

“The poisonous well of anti-Jewish rhetoric”- German Christian Anti-Semitism as a background to the Holocaust.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126305.html

Christians in the Warsaw Ghetto:

http://www3.undpress.nd.edu/exec/dispatch.php?s=title,P01028

My “aunt-in-law”, another “Christian”, says the Holocaust was no big deal because “it was only a few Jews”. I can’t tell you how many “Christians” I know spend a lot of time “criticizing Israel”, meanwhile when I protest they turn around and refer to me as a “typical Jew”.

Right, and I’m not your aunt-in-law, nor would I ever refer to you or any other Jew as a ‘typical Jew’!

“The minority of non-law-abiding Haredim in Israel are no more significant than the problem of polygmous Mormons in the USA.”

This is a joke, right? Mormons have no effect on anyone in the US and Haredim effect everyone in Israel’s lives. (Not serving in the army, not working and taking taxes from working Israelis, etc…) I find the responses to this article sickening but all-to-familiar. Any criticism of anything to do with Israel to these posters and accusations of anti-Semitism are thrown around with abandon. (Also, there is the usual complete misrepresentation of what the author is actually saying.)

Gabriel – 1. gay marriage
2. are you a christian or whatever yeze calls himself?

So maybe, next time Yeze, you can divide your articles as suggested above

If I divided the articles into 2 separate ones about Israel & Saudi Arabia, and posted the Israel one first, you’d probably accuse me of singling out Israel for criticism, and then of only posting about Saudi Arabia to cover my tracks.

I can’t win!

“Christians in the Warsaw Ghetto:

http://www3.undpress.nd.edu/exec/dispatch.php?s=title,P01028”

I am struggling to see the relevance of the presence of Christians in the Warsaw Ghetto to the long and rich history of European Christian anti-semitism, (without which the Final Solution would have been significantly more difficult for the Nazis).

I can only speak for myself, Yeze, but I wouldn’t have criticised you for writing about Haredi extremists without the extraneous Saudi analogy. That said, the accusation seems to be that you have an agenda to criticise other strands of Jewish thinking in order to increase your own standing as a Jew. I’m happy to criticise your article on its own merits, but if that is your agenda, it’s a bit pointless. They will be seen as bad Jews, and you will still be seen as a non-Jew. As an atheist it’s irrelevant to me, but if I were religious, I’d probably want Judaism to get back into the excommunication game with regard to that lot.

I think you’re right though, that whatever you write, the argument is always going to degenerate into a general hate-fest, because of your own self-identity, as it seems to attract a lot of hostility. 2,000 years of Christian antisemitism and proselytism may provide the background to this feeling, but you basically seem like a decent fellow, and I think most of the attacks on you are unwarranted.

As I wrote yesterday, I see nothing antisemitic your post, but Gabriel is dead wrong when he writes “any criticism of anything to do with Israel to these posters and accusations of anti-Semitism are thrown around with abandon.” I’ve tried to explain why I think people have a visceral reaction against this article: due to the analogy’s inherent assumption that HP readers might think favourably of Haredi religious enforcers, and also, obviously because of the Yezi’s putative theological agenda. But I’ve scanned the thread and I could only find one (too many) direct accusation of antisemitism. I’ve yet to read a single comment to the effect that these religious enforcers are anything other than criminals, ideological equivalents of the mutaween and enemies of Israel.

Because Jewish Christians have, over the centuries, been on the receiving end of Christian anti-Semitism. To then blame us for that anti-Semitism is ridiculous, don’t you think?

Tim, cheers for your comment – in my defence my posts are promoting the idea that me and my friends should be able to live in a nicer society. It’s unfair to accuse Orthodox Jews or Muslims of a religious agenda every time they write in defence of their community, and same goes for me.

Only difference being Lubavitch, Breslov and Aish are genuine strands of Judaism attempting to return Jews to their roots whereas what you represent is not and is nothing but a fraud…

Oh the irony. All religion is nothing but fraud.

amie, thank you for the link.

I welcome laws against perverts including what the Bible prescribes as punishment. The radical Moslems have a few good ideas borrowed from our Old Testament.

On the other hand the Holy Spirit empowers change in those homosexuals and adulterers and other perverts who repent and believe. There are scores of thousands of ex-gays (really ex-homosexuals and ex-lesbians) who enjoy normal lives, drives, and family lives. Now that’s proof of the power of God to change man for the better.

Case in point of religion being absolute fraud.

Also harmful.

It may be unfair, but you do invite it when you call your article “Saudi & Haredi Mutaween”, and the idea that you have such an agenda is at least consistent with your previous arguments regarding Lubavitch. Personally, I’d give up the battle to be accepted as a Jew. You can’t and needn’t change your own self-identity, but you’re not going to change club rules from the outside.

Well, I have an opinion on Lubavitch and I have an opinion on modesty squads. How is that ‘having an agenda’ any more than you having an agenda by opining on these topics?

Well, we agree on the Lubavitch being messianic Jews and on religious enforcers being a nasty bunch whatever their theology, but as I hold no religious beliefs I have no religious agenda, so I don’t really care too much about the Lubavitchers, even if there would seem to be a halachic case for having them excommunicated as heretics. As a secularist, I condemn the religious enforcers’ coercion, and as a hopefully moral human being, I condemn them as violent thugs. In that sense I’m sure we share a moral and secularist agenda.

The agenda I suspect you have, and that we don’t share, is the need to highlight deviant – but accepted – Jews, in order to make my own religious deviance more palatable. I genuinely sympathise with your plight, and am horrified by the lack of tolerance afforded messianic Jews, but the lack of acceptance of your Jewish self-identity seems a small price to pay for following one’s conscience and the promise of a blissful afterlife.

I welcome laws against perverts including what the Bible prescribes as punishment. The radical Moslems have a few good ideas borrowed from our Old Testament.

On the other hand the Holy Spirit empowers change in those homosexuals and adulterers and other perverts who repent and believe. There are scores of thousands of ex-gays (really ex-homosexuals and ex-lesbians) who enjoy normal lives, drives, and family lives. Now that’s proof of the power of God to change man for the better.

Josh Scholar writes–
Case in point of religion being absolute fraud. Also harmful.

Ken says–

Wrong on both counts, Josh. I notice you offer no information to refute the fact that thousands of former homosexuals are now free to enjoy normal sexual and emotional lives. (Far better than staying in unhealthy arrested development as a gay.)

If the God of the Bible is the true God, then you’d expect Him to provide a way to repent and become a new person in Christ Jesus. And He does!

I wish there was a way to send morons like you back a millennium or so. Then you could live out your life looking for witches cavorting with the devil or something without bothering sane people who have the modern capability of parsing the real world instead of obsessing over inane delusions and hurting the innocent.

Also: “I welcome laws against perverts including what the Bible prescribes as punishment. The radical Moslems have a few good ideas borrowed from our Old Testament.”

Oh fuck (lol – I can’t say “Oh God” in this context can I :p) The problem with the BNP is they have no way to send drooling radical Christians back to Saudi.

HP You have not in the slightest altered my appreciation of the New Testament. We have different ears and perceptions.

Nietsche disliked the New Testament because of its submissive aspects and he wanted instead to develop his idea of the superman, which many took as a precursor of Nazism. But Nietsche wasn’t stupid and he would have been horrified by the Nazis. He also told his housekeeper that the things he wrote were not intended to be taken literally.

I repeat, in answer to a few letters above:
1. Many people who call themselves Christians have no right to do so.
2.The appalling history of the Christian churches had nothing to do with the New Testament, conceived by Jews who could hardly be antisemitic.
3. Such persecutions of minorities have occurred in several other contexts, also non Christian ones. They are due to inhuman nature not to Christ.
4. Sophia, your sister-in-law is not a Good Person, neither are the pseudo christian friends who call you a ‘typical Jew,’ There are also secularists who are antisemitic.

Felix
re. 2 – you might care to review http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html
particularly the citations from John’s gospel and subsequent texts.

j.r. I have looked at the site you indicated and will again. Not much time just now.

Isaiah contains a much more explicit condemnation of the Jews, but it cannot be construed as antisemiticism, because it is self critcism of his own people who have gone astray and are – at that point – not being true to their own religion.

The polemics of Jesus were with the Pharisees not with the Jews as such (how could they be?). There may well have been a phase in which the Pharisees were rigid old fogeys and Jesus was rebelling against these. However, it is true that he created a new religion in contradistinction to Judaism.

The Jews killed Jesus is an ambiguous phrase. Here it was Jews as opposed to Romans, as Pontius Pilate did not really want the crucifiction. Probably the Pharisees wanted to see him dead, but the desire for his death came also from his previous followers, the Zealots, who wanted to see him as a political freedom fighter (from Roman tyranny) and he told them they had misunderstood him. he was festively greeted on his entry into Jerusalem as the King of the Jews, but after saying no to this, he ended up pretty isolated. I think there might have been a bit of mass hysteria such as can happen in any country when people wanted to see Jesus crucified.

The argument about The Jews killing Jesus is a ridiculous non-argument, like saying the English killed Oscar Wilde.

Alas I have to go. I did not look at the citations from the Acts of the Apostles, because I think it is there that Christianity begins to go wrong.

And I don’t think this thread is being followed much any more.

Felix, the new testament texts become increasingly antisemitic in chronological order as the christians came to define themselves seperately and become integrated with the already antisemitic roman state.

Whatever you think happened at the time, the texts depicting jews killing jesus is the unequivocal foundation of christian antisemitism.

Christianity is a religion that has always defined itself as morally superior to an Other, and the canard about christians who do bad things not being real christians is a manifestation of this.

J.R. After lunch

Atleast we are discussing and not throwing insults at each other

St John:
“It is said that none of the Jews do (what is written in) the Torah.”
Here J. is condemning whoever(Pharisees, Jews) for not following the commandments of Moses. Hardly anti-semitic. Many such complaints may be found in Isaiah and other prophets. I complain about the fact that Christians are not Christian – just think of the way Catholics and Protestants slaughtered each other.

“The Jews are said to be thieves and robbers.”
I found nothing of this kind in the cited passage.

Sometimes the compiler of these citations substitutes Jews for Pharisees. St. John does have references to ‘the Jews’, which is disconcerting from our point of view. Logically they represent the Pharisees. There’s no doubt that Jesus was at odds with the religious establishment of his time, with orthodox Judaism as it was then being practised.

You’ll never convince me that the New Testament is by definition anti-semitic. People who are anti-semitic, be they Christians, secularists, Muslims etc. are just bad people. Fullstop.

That site you quoted seems like a ‘clever’/ revolting piece of conspiracy theory.

It’s up to you to read the cited texts and make your own mind up, Felix. I don’t really take an interest in that site – it was just a useful compendium of citations. However if I will “never” convince you that the new testament is antisemitic then it sounds like it’s a matter of belief for you.

The idea that when John says “jews” he means “pharisees” sounds unlikely, but is in any event unprovable either way. Whatever the intention of the original author(s), which is inaccessible to us, the jews as christ-killers are featured in the new testament and this is the ideological foundation of christian antisemitism, the crusades, autos-da-fe, blood libels and genocides leading up to and including the nazi era atrocities.

Ideology isn’t the only factor in those crimes, but it is an important component. And all of that is part of christianity, part of its darkness; and the depiction of christ-killer jews is, if you like, christianity’s satanic verses.

The most explicitly antisemitic NT passage is I think in John.8 from verse 31 where he has Jesus tell the jews that they are children of the devil:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=citation&book=John&chapno=8&startverse=31&endverse=47

j.r. if I’m not mistaken, it is the Pharisees who tell Jesus he is the son of the devil. Such words could never isuue from his mouth. He believed in the God of the Old Testament but thought the Pharasees were untrue to it. You are reading a dialogue.

I find that passage in your Url very moving, and not in the slightest bit antisemitic. He is arguing with the religious establishment of his time.

But these things go so far back into history. The present – in theory – is a time of religious tolerance, whatever mistakes may may have been committed in the past.

Since I am not an adherent either of Judaism or Christianity. I find the whole discussion fascinating. Israel was the birth place of two great religions, and Yeze is returning to the cradle of his religion. What cultural richness. The two should live side beside in peace.

I admit, I’m not keen on conversion, and am allergic to the voice that tries to persuade, though I have to admit that I was a terrible unwitting converter in younger days, not to a religion but to the right way of thinking about poetry, music and society. I wrote endless letters telling people where they were wrong and betraying the future of mankind. I made visitors leave their newspapers on the landing outside my door, because I didn’t want lies to be brought into my home. Fortunately my friend David T’s father was spared this phase of my life.

I gave up that approach completely: not that I think my ideas were all wrong, but I now introduce them here and there. lightly touched on in essays. Most of My inspiration came from Jewish Germans, Adorno, Horkheimer, Benjamin, Mahler, Heine, Mendelssohn, Schoenberg, Zemliinky, Karl Kraus, Else Lasker-Schueler, Rosa Luxemburg.

Felix, I think your are mistaken in your reading of this passage. Perhaps the sense is clearer here: http://bible.thelineberrys.com/JOH/JOH8.HTM

I think it is important not to confuse the positive message of christianity with the fantasy that it is all goodness and light. The massive contribution of christianity is that it spread elements of jewish ethics in a way that judaism couldn’t. This was a massive improvement on the ethical thought and conduct of people in the ancient world and we owe it our modern concepts of ethics and rights. However, christianity also contains terrible flaws.

Like you I am not a card carrying religious practitioner, like you my main preoccupation/activity is within the arts and the names with which you conclude I also highly esteem.